First cycle critique. Test + Anavar.

[Get Some]

Listen here you fucks! lol

I'm just going to give advice based on the assumption that the OP is going to follow through with this whether anyone tells him to or not.

Here's what you need plain and simple:

1. Don't overcomplicate things... drop the prop and just run test E straight through for 10-12 weeks. Just wait 21-15 days after your last pin to start PCT

2. What are your long term and short term goals? If you don't want to be much bigger than 170 lbs, then gear is not for you. WHy screw up your natural levels and risk lifelong TRT to gain a couple pounds and some strength?

3. If you do want to get closer to 200lbs, stick to the basics... on everything. Run your cycle with 30mg Dbol for the first 5 weeks or so and run arimidex or aromasin alongside. If you run 12.5mg aromasin EOD or 0.5mg Adex EOD throughout at least the first 5 weeks then you shouldn't have any problems with estro bloat. Using dbol with a concurrent AI is basically like using Tbol (which is great by the way).

4. Why spend a ton of money on anavar when it's not right for what you truly need? On your first cycle you are going to want to see daily results after the first couple weeks. Anavar is not going to do that for you other than strength. Also, you can use a mere 30mg of dbol and get ridiculous results, while trying to use 60mg of anavar and getting results that are not even close to similar. Anavar costs close to twice as much and you are using AT LEAST twice as much of it. So, you can thank me later for saving you a ton of money and gettting you better results in the process

5. HCG is not for PCT. HCG should be used throughout cycle starting at about week 3. 250 IU twice weekly or 500IU once weekly is fine. You can increase the frequency of your dosing if your nuts shrink significantly (we call this "as needed"). In the 21-25 days leading up to PCT you should "blast" the HCG at 1000 IU per week split into 2 doses. Once you start with the SERMs discontinue the use of HCG. HCG will only suppress your natural test a bit further once you start using SERMS.

6. I like Nolva/Clomid combo.... 4 weeks of Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and Clomid at 100/50/50/50

7. Do not use Nolva on cycle if you are using an AI, this is a waste (not saying you were, just as a general rule)

8. Eat to achieve your goals. If you want to bulk then eat lke a horse. The quality of foods you eat will determine the amount of adipose tissue that you gain for the most part.

9. Lean Bulking is a LONG process. If you want to gain 20lbs of mass while maintaining your current BF%, expect to spend about a year doing this... UNLESS you gain 30 lbs in half the time and al ittle fat with it and then cut back down to your desired weight....much quicker

10. If you want to bulk, choose a weight training program that emphasizes that like the 5x5 or DC Training or German Volume Training. This could be the most important piece of advice yet! Most of the people who want their biceps to grow don't believe me when I tell them that if they focus on compound movements that target their back their arms will explode....but it's true! I kid you not, I am advising you right now to focus on your back routine (including pull ups and chin ups) for a solid month without doing one arm curl and see where you are at at the end of the month. If your arms do not look fuller after that period of time I will be SHOCKED. Take the challenge!

11. Keep reading... a wise man never stops learning, only fools know everything

12. You're welcome!

 

[JOMO]

Listen here you fucks! lol

I'm just going to give advice based on the assumption that the OP is going to follow through with this whether anyone tells him to or not.

Here's what you need plain and simple:

1. Don't overcomplicate things... drop the prop and just run test E straight through for 10-12 weeks. Just wait 21-15 days after your last pin to start PCT

2. What are your long term and short term goals? If you don't want to be much bigger than 170 lbs, then gear is not for you. WHy screw up your natural levels and risk lifelong TRT to gain a couple pounds and some strength?

3. If you do want to get closer to 200lbs, stick to the basics... on everything. Run your cycle with 30mg Dbol for the first 5 weeks or so and run arimidex or aromasin alongside. If you run 12.5mg aromasin EOD or 0.5mg Adex EOD throughout at least the first 5 weeks then you shouldn't have any problems with estro bloat. Using dbol with a concurrent AI is basically like using Tbol (which is great by the way).

4. Why spend a ton of money on anavar when it's not right for what you truly need? On your first cycle you are going to want to see daily results after the first couple weeks. Anavar is not going to do that for you other than strength. Also, you can use a mere 30mg of dbol and get ridiculous results, while trying to use 60mg of anavar and getting results that are not even close to similar. Anavar costs close to twice as much and you are using AT LEAST twice as much of it. So, you can thank me later for saving you a ton of money and gettting you better results in the process

5. HCG is not for PCT. HCG should be used throughout cycle starting at about week 3. 250 IU twice weekly or 500IU once weekly is fine. You can increase the frequency of your dosing if your nuts shrink significantly (we call this "as needed"). In the 21-25 days leading up to PCT you should "blast" the HCG at 1000 IU per week split into 2 doses. Once you start with the SERMs discontinue the use of HCG. HCG will only suppress your natural test a bit further once you start using SERMS.

6. I like Nolva/Clomid combo.... 4 weeks of Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and Clomid at 100/50/50/50

7. Do not use Nolva on cycle if you are using an AI, this is a waste (not saying you were, just as a general rule)

8. Eat to achieve your goals. If you want to bulk then eat lke a horse. The quality of foods you eat will determine the amount of adipose tissue that you gain for the most part.

9. Lean Bulking is a LONG process. If you want to gain 20lbs of mass while maintaining your current BF%, expect to spend about a year doing this... UNLESS you gain 30 lbs in half the time and al ittle fat with it and then cut back down to your desired weight....much quicker

10. If you want to bulk, choose a weight training program that emphasizes that like the 5x5 or DC Training or German Volume Training. This could be the most important piece of advice yet! Most of the people who want their biceps to grow don't believe me when I tell them that if they focus on compound movements that target their back their arms will explode....but it's true! I kid you not, I am advising you right now to focus on your back routine (including pull ups and chin ups) for a solid month without doing one arm curl and see where you are at at the end of the month. If your arms do not look fuller after that period of time I will be SHOCKED. Take the challenge!

11. Keep reading... a wise man never stops learning, only fools know everything

12. You're welcome!

/End thread. Great info. Oh..didn't mean to hit dislike after liking it.

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks for the response man. Good advice. Let me address a few things in your post

Listen here you fucks! lol

I'm just going to give advice based on the assumption that the OP is going to follow through with this whether anyone tells him to or not.

Here's what you need plain and simple:

1. Don't overcomplicate things... drop the prop and just run test E straight through for 10-12 weeks. Just wait 21-15 days after your last pin to start PCT

2. What are your long term and short term goals? If you don't want to be much bigger than 170 lbs, then gear is not for you. WHy screw up your natural levels and risk lifelong TRT to gain a couple pounds and some strength?
I want to gain at least 20-30 lbs more muscle than I currently have. In your opinion, would running this cycle put me at a high risk for permanently messing up my natural test production? I was under the impression that first cycles generally allow full recovery.

3. If you do want to get closer to 200lbs, stick to the basics... on everything. Run your cycle with 30mg Dbol for the first 5 weeks or so and run arimidex or aromasin alongside. If you run 12.5mg aromasin EOD or 0.5mg Adex EOD throughout at least the first 5 weeks then you shouldn't have any problems with estro bloat. Using dbol with a concurrent AI is basically like using Tbol (which is great by the way).

4. Why spend a ton of money on anavar when it's not right for what you truly need? On your first cycle you are going to want to see daily results after the first couple weeks. Anavar is not going to do that for you other than strength. Also, you can use a mere 30mg of dbol and get ridiculous results, while trying to use 60mg of anavar and getting results that are not even close to similar. Anavar costs close to twice as much and you are using AT LEAST twice as much of it. So, you can thank me later for saving you a ton of money and gettting you better results in the process
I don't really care about the extra money, no need to worry about cost-effective cycles. The more gradual and permanent results of anavar appeal to me as opposed to the massive strength gains, weight gains, and bloat that accompany d-bol and can go away just as fast once you stop it. I'm in this for the long-term, permanent results it will bring. I'd take a few pounds less of quality, permanent muscle away from this cycle rather than extra pounds of fat and soft muscle. Not that I'm experienced with either compound, this opinion is just based on my reading so far.

5. HCG is not for PCT. HCG should be used throughout cycle starting at about week 3. 250 IU twice weekly or 500IU once weekly is fine. You can increase the frequency of your dosing if your nuts shrink significantly (we call this "as needed"). In the 21-25 days leading up to PCT you should "blast" the HCG at 1000 IU per week split into 2 doses. Once you start with the SERMs discontinue the use of HCG. HCG will only suppress your natural test a bit further once you start using SERMS.
Sounds about right, except I've definitely read that twice a week @ 250 IU is the way to go, and I don't think 500 once a week is even close to as good of an idea. HCG has a 3 day effective life. Just based on what I've read. Also, I believe based on everything I've read that starting at week 1 is ideal, not a few weeks in
6. I like Nolva/Clomid combo.... 4 weeks of Nolva at 40/40/20/20 and Clomid at 100/50/50/50

7. Do not use Nolva on cycle if you are using an AI, this is a waste (not saying you were, just as a general rule)

8. Eat to achieve your goals. If you want to bulk then eat lke a horse. The quality of foods you eat will determine the amount of adipose tissue that you gain for the most part.

9. Lean Bulking is a LONG process. If you want to gain 20lbs of mass while maintaining your current BF%, expect to spend about a year doing this... UNLESS you gain 30 lbs in half the time and al ittle fat with it and then cut back down to your desired weight....much quicker

10. If you want to bulk, choose a weight training program that emphasizes that like the 5x5 or DC Training or German Volume Training. This could be the most important piece of advice yet! Most of the people who want their biceps to grow don't believe me when I tell them that if they focus on compound movements that target their back their arms will explode....but it's true! I kid you not, I am advising you right now to focus on your back routine (including pull ups and chin ups) for a solid month without doing one arm curl and see where you are at at the end of the month. If your arms do not look fuller after that period of time I will be SHOCKED. Take the challenge!
Fuck yeah, just finishing up a 5x5 progression now, deloading next week, then was planning to jump into DC long-term.

11. Keep reading... a wise man never stops learning, only fools know everything

12. You're welcome!

Thank you for the detailed and informative response. Solid advice for anyone getting started.
Oh, and just curious... Do you agree with PoB that I am not ready for AAS at my current level of development?

 

[Get Some]

Thanks for the response man. Good advice. Let me address a few things in your post



Thank you for the detailed and informative response. Solid advice for anyone getting started.
Oh, and just curious... Do you agree with PoB that I am not ready for AAS at my current level of development?

Anytime you go into a cycle, you have to assume the possibility of long term shutdown and/or hypogonadism. If you can't deal with that, then you need to look at other avenues. Yes, it's unlikely that this would happen with your first cycle, but until you see how react you just can't tell for sure. They also say it's unlikely that if you forget to wear a condom just once that you'll knock up a chick...yet it happens on a regular basis

IMO, whoever is writing shit about Anavar being "good for long term slow, steady gains" is out of their fucking mind, lol. I really believe that it is easier to lose gains you've made from anavar than it is to lose gains you've made from dbol. And certainly there is no doubt that gains minus what you lose with dbol would still be far superior to anavar. In my book, anavar is a cutting drug and should be used accordingly. IMO, you should save it for a later cycle, at which point you can decide to run that or winny or a lower dose combination (combo is FANTASTIC for cutting!). The real drug that is good for long term slow, steady muscle gains is primobolan. But, unless you can be absolutely sure what you're getting is the real deal then I wouldn't ever consider it. It's very mild in nature so it would be hard to tell if you got underdosed Test instead of primo. But, if you've used primo before then you know the feeling. After about 12 weeks you feel like a rock with very full muscles and almost no water retention. But, even though primo is mild in nature, I think it should be classified as an "advanced user" level drug, because of the expectations and what you have to do to be successful with it.

The biggest problem with new users is the worry about "bloat." You are only causing yourself harm by worrying about this and should really just get over it and dive right in. After just one week of dbol you won't give a fuck about a little extra water...in fact you'll hardly even notice it. And other people aren't going to say, "hey, you're getting fatter" they're gonna say, "fuck man, you're getting hyooooge!"... and just to clarify on this, bloat is not fat, it's subcutaneous water. Subcutaneous water is not a bad thing while on cycle because it can be a cushion to the joints (which is why you want to low dose the AIs on a regular basis) rather than heavy dose if you need it.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that you need to have Letro on hand. This is not just some broscience suggestion, Letro has saved my ass many times. I am very prone to gyno from test and sometimes arimidex or aromasin is not enough. Each time I've used Letro it's killed the gyno symptoms in just a matter of a few days. Don't spend time worrying about what could happen, just have it on hand.

IMO, you have all of the same worries that most people have when they go to start their anabolic journey. You just need to loosen up and listen to people who have been through this journey before. BUT, also, never just take the advice of one person. Over time you will learn who the good people are to read and then check what they say against what you have read. And then to take it a step further do some additional research.

For example, you will find out through your own experience that HCG works just fine on an "as needed" basis. Desensitization of the leydig cells from long term hcg use is a reality if you are not careful. I usually run it a couple weeks then take a week off and then run it for another few weeks and so on. OH... also, I FORGOT... I mistyped in my last post about the HCG "blast" before PCT. During this blast period, you want to be pinning HCG 500 IU EVERY OTHER DAY, not just 1000 IU weekly. So, it's closer to 1750 IU weekly if you really want to get technical about it.

If it were me, I would want to have as much info as possible about what I was going to do before I did it. Because, to be honest, a lot of the guys who have been around for awhile, including myself, did not run very well advised first cycles. In fact, my first cycle was dbol and deca... yup, no test! I gained a ton of weight and was very happy with it, but then my sex drive took 7 months to recover! It was a nightmare and I have only used Deca once since. Anytime you are dealing with Tren or Deca just be very cautious because it can fuck with your dick big time. The worst is with Tren because sometimes it ups your sex drive, but decreases blood flow to the genital area.... so you are horny, but can't stay hard!

Here are a few more quick tidbits:

1. Oral Dosing: some guys like to dose it only on workout days about an hour to an hour and a half preworkout (full dose at that time). I prefer to spread the doses out throughout the day as much as possible, especially with dbol. With 10mg of dbol dosed 3x per day you won't get the same jolt and pumps that 30mg all at once preworkout will give you, but from my experience you will gain more solid muscle overall.

2. If you are sore, take one more day off. Remember, muscles don't grow while you're working out, they grow based on how good of rest and fuel they recieve after taking that battering. SLEEP becomes critical. If you are still young and like to party you can fit that into your lifestyle as well, but be prepared to make some sacrifices to achieve the body you desire. Taking naps of about 1 hour to an hour and a half 2-4 times per week is great for recharging the batteries. Some of the best athletes to ever walk this earth admitted in interviews that they took naps a few times a week and that helped keep them in top condition.

3. Mix up your routine every once in awhile. The whole "muscle confusion" thing I don't buy, but it's more to keep you interested in succeeding. Long Term DC training will be great, but while you're doing it you should research other heavy lifting and mass routines. It never hurts to have something to switch off with every couple of months.

4. Chart your progress and take pictures. The more involved you get with the process, the better the chance you will succeed. Don't get too caught up in day to day progress, worry more about the long term goal. I'm currently in the process of cutting and I give myself rewards for reaching certain levels or weights based on where I think my body should and can be. The reward last week was a bag of sour patch kids (my favorite!), however, after reaching my goal weight for that week, I decided to skip the sour patch kids because I was even more excited about my progress and didn't want to slow my roll. So, you have to find out what works for you and what motivates you.

5. Cardio is necessary even when bulking. This will keep your heart in shape and help with your recovery time. Cardio without music or TV is hell, lol. Quick tip for all of you that have Netflix.... download the app on your phone and watch a 30 minute episode of your favorite TV show right on your phone while you are sitting at the gym on the cardio equipment. I'm telling you it's a lifesaver!

 

[Bro Bundy]

Where were his test levels prior to the cycle? I wonder if he was hypogonadal...

no clue all I know is the kids in love with testosterone...Will he lose all his gains after pct only time will tell,my guess is he will lose alot because he had no foundation to start with.

 

[Malevolence]

judging by your stats I would say hard core ectomorph. I am not gonna go POB on you but diet is definitely king. You do however have an advantage that you can put to use. Your caloric maintenance is low and you can basically eat what ever the fuck you want with out getting fat. High calorie foods like big macs and shit like that to get the extra calories. your maintenance right now is 2550 so you should really start out getting at least 2700 a day but more like 3000 a day. You have to eat good shit too but you can cheat way more than others. Do your cycle just eat right. One thing I do to get calories is I take a table spoon of extra virgin olive oil before bed every night with cottage cheese and yogurt. Really focus on the diet and work your ass off and you will get big

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks Get Some. I really do appreciate you taking the time to give me all of that advice and information. I will definitely get some Letro. And you are right, Dbol would probably be better for maximum gains.
I was really just going to run a test cycle originally, I was thinking I could add anavar for just a little extra boost without any additional sides or tougher recovery. I'm sure the test will do most of the work and I should be happy with the results from the test.
HCG is very controversial, I read that HCG desensitization can't happen from the kind of doses we're talking about, I read that it can easily happen.... I guess its smarter to err on the side of caution and use it sparingly.
Definitely would dose orals evenly through the day, better to keep levels even than have them up and down every day.
As far as diet, exercise, cardio I think I have it under control. I posted up a thread about my exercise routine progress a while ago, and I will try to post up a sample diet soon if I have some time. Cardio is usually hockey once or twice a week and right now I'm playing soccer once a week as well. Plus my job is working on my feet and walking around alot etc. which is kind of like slow steady state cardio.

Thanks again.

 

[Curiosity]

judging by your stats I would say hard core ectomorph. I am not gonna go POB on you but diet is definitely king. You do however have an advantage that you can put to use. Your caloric maintenance is low and you can basically eat what ever the fuck you want with out getting fat. High calorie foods like big macs and shit like that to get the extra calories. your maintenance right now is 2550 so you should really start out getting at least 2700 a day but more like 3000 a day. You have to eat good shit too but you can cheat way more than others. Do your cycle just eat right. One thing I do to get calories is I take a table spoon of extra virgin olive oil before bed every night with cottage cheese and yogurt. Really focus on the diet and work your ass off and you will get big

Yeah I think I'm definitely that ectomorph. I lifted for years without trying to eat extra cals, thinking I would slowly gain weight/muscle, and it just didn't happen. I got alot stronger for sure, and my body changed, but I didn't grow that much. Now I find I gotta really plan my eating to make it happen.
I'm pretty damn active. I've been eating closer to 4500 cals a day for the last 3 months, and I can still see my abs. I've gained about 12 lbs during that time though. Some of it is fat, but clearly not too much. I do try to keep the cals clean though, I don't need to eat junk to get my cals where I need them. I can plan my eating and make it work.
I probably will go ahead with the cycle. I'm going out of town in a few days, then when I get back I'll get my routine back in order, grab a few more things I need to start, then fire it up in a month or two.

Thanks for the response.

 

[PillarofBalance]

What the hell? THE GREAT AND ALL KNOWING GET SOME HAS ARRIVED!!!

learned almost everything i know from this guy...

 

[Get Some]

What the hell? THE GREAT AND ALL KNOWING GET SOME HAS ARRIVED!!!

learned almost everything i know from this guy...

Except how to butt fuck souls, you were the one who taught me that

 

[CIII]

Small amount of info is all I need. Using your example, tall and skinny learn to eat more. Short and fat learn to eat right.

The OP does not have the foundation. Says so himself. He liked being lean now he wants to grow. Learn to grow naturally thru eating first. I would bet money he loses everything he gains after PCT.

Is there a set height weight? Of course not and it depends on your goal. I don't think you have to be super lean 10% BF or over some mystery weight... But he just changed up his goal and immediately wants to juice. Show some commitment to growing first. It's a lot harder than staying lean.

i agree with you PoB!