Starting AND Ending with an Oral.

[SAD]

Ran test-e at 12 weeks, 500mg/w with a SD kicker. Started at 195 and got up to 203~ with the four weeks of SD, after that I gained 2-3lbs in the next 8 weeks on just the test. I'll admit my diet wasn't as good as it is now at this time. I just ate everything I could get my hands on so it was definitely a diry bulk but I find it hard to believe I was in that big of a caloric deficit.

During week eleven I got some knarley golfer's elbow and tried to work around it for my last week and developed some nice tennis elbow. This, combined with going into PCT, put me out of the game for almost 4 months. Got back in the gym because my elbow just was not getting any better at a certain point. Been working out almost 2 months again and got back to my starting weight, and my elbow has gotten drastically better since returning to the gym. Still can't full extend my arm to where my bicep loses load but I've been stretching and working on that.

Always been skinny AF. Was like 165~lbs when I started working out, and also recently discovered that I have hypothyroidism (probably to compensate for the lack of my eating my whole life). Recently got a diet coach to help me out on a clean bulk and everything is going great.

When I started working out: https://db.tt/P2U7JPfM

Where I got before using AAS: https://db.tt/o9dLk9BX

And that's my life story.

OH and also... I have really small ****ing calves.

If that's the case, I'd recommend you take the diet coach's advice, double the calories, force feed until it's not forcing anymore, and then revisit a cycle as if it were your first. Like 500mg test along with an oral kickstart, and that's it. I'm not a monster, but I'm 6'3" 280+ and not overly fat, so my opinion is still an opinion, but it's coming from someone who's been there and done that.

 

[Tiny Calves]

If that's the case, I'd recommend you take the diet coach's advice, double the calories, force feed until it's not forcing anymore, and then revisit a cycle as if it were your first. Like 500mg test along with an oral kickstart, and that's it. I'm not a monster, but I'm 6'3" 280+ and not overly fat, so my opinion is still an opinion, but it's coming from someone who's been there and done that.

Jesus Christ? Jay Cutler is like 310 during the off season.

I've already started my cycle and am sure I'm at least slightly shut down even with HCG. Being under my genetic potential, it was my understanding that my gains wouldn't be difficult to keep. Not trying to be that hard headed dick internet kid, but just looking at the pro's and con's of stopping vs finishing, I don't see what would be so bad with finishing.

Again, not trying to be a hard head. This isn't one of those situations where I'm going to do whatever I want anyways, so you aren't wasting you time. So please provide me with your reasoning why I should drop and start PCT in 2 weeks (other than not being huge). That's the reason I'm here, to get my hands on some of the knowledge you guys have gathered from experience.

 

[will]

I wouldnt stop and pct that's just wasting what uve already started. I would change my ratio where ur getting more test than decca and eat like crazy. If u wanna be 250lbs then eat like u weight it now. Good luck

 

[Tiny Calves]

I wouldnt stop and pct that's just wasting what uve already started. I would change my ratio where ur getting more test than decca and eat like crazy. If u wanna be 250lbs then eat like u weight it now. Good luck

Right on brotha! Been getting roughly 2 lbs a week since starting my new diet.

Got a 300 cal bagel, TBSP of pb, 40g whey, and a banana going down the hatch at this very moment!

 

[SAD]

Right on brotha! Been getting roughly 2 lbs a week since starting my new diet.

Got a 300 cal bagel, TBSP of pb, 40g whey, and a banana going down the hatch at this very moment!

Fire your diet coach.

A bagel? 40g of whey? If you're at home, why not eat whole food, instead of a shake?

Dude, you should be eating steak and chicken and whole eggs and sweet potatoes and white potatoes and white rice and veggies and avocados and coconut oil, in massive quantities, 3-4 times per day. Obviously there are other things you can eat, but stay away from bagels and other breads, and get every gram of protein and carbs and fats from WHOLE FOODS whenever possible.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I'll respond with more, later.

 

[Tiny Calves]

Fire your diet coach.

A bagel? 40g of whey? If you're at home, why not eat whole food, instead of a shake?

Dude, you should be eating steak and chicken and whole eggs and sweet potatoes and white potatoes and white rice and veggies and avocados and coconut oil, in massive quantities, 3-4 times per day. Obviously there are other things you can eat, but stay away from bagels and other breads, and get every gram of protein and carbs and fats from WHOLE FOODS whenever possible.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I'll respond with more, later.

We got a flamer =P

That is my post workout meal and the only "bad" carbs I have all day. It is meant to be short and sweet for my "anabolic window" and I also workout in the evening. Get home from the gym late with another meal to eat before bedtime. Which is usually either 40g casein, 1.5 cups greek yogurt + 1cup veggies

 

[Tiny Calves]

Example:

Meal 1
- 10 egg whites
- 1.5 cup oats (uncooked)

Meal 2 & 3
- 9oz chicken (weighed raw) 1TBSP Olive Oil
- 1.5 cups brown rice (cooked)
- 1 cup veggies

Meal 4 (pre workout)
same as 2&3 + one apple

Meal 5 (post workout)
1 whole white bagel
1 banana
1 TBSP PB
40g whey

Meal 6
1.5 cups greek yogurt
1 cup veggies

 

[DocDePanda187123]

There is no bad carb and your anabolic window after training is approximately 24hrs in length. Your anabolic response to a meal as measure by nitrogen retention and muscle protein synthesis is even 5-6hrs in length. There's no specific need for short and sweet regarding PWO.

Esit* the PB will make sure that's not short and sweet and will lengthen digestion times bc of the fat. Not that that's a bad thing but...

 

[Tiny Calves]

There is no bad carb and your anabolic window after training is approximately 24hrs in length. Your anabolic response to a meal as measure by nitrogen retention and muscle protein synthesis is even 5-6hrs in length. There's no specific need for short and sweet regarding PWO.

Esit* the PB will make sure that's not short and sweet and will lengthen digestion times bc of the fat. Not that that's a bad thing but...

Dunno. Sure you know who my coach is. Seems pretty knowledgeable.

 

[mistah187]

Haha damn it bundy u just beat me to it. Was honna say if she is down with it thats the best way to go

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Dunno. Sure you know who my coach is. Seems pretty knowledgeable.

I can guess pretty good yea. I never said it what you're doing doesn't work, I simply said it doesn't for the reasons you guys think it does. I'm not against HIS method if it suits you but it's no better than any other 'sensible' approach.

 

[Tiny Calves]

I can guess pretty good yea. I never said it what you're doing doesn't work, I simply said it doesn't for the reasons you guys think it does. I'm not against HIS method if it suits you but it's no better than any other 'sensible' approach.

I assumed it was for the "anabolic window" which I now see is just bro-science =P But he probably did it because he knows I get in late from the gym with 2 meals left in the day. Or maybe not. I'll have to ask him. Let you know if he gives me a specific!

 

[DocDePanda187123]

I assumed it was for the "anabolic window" which I now see is just bro-science =P But he probably did it because he knows I get in late from the gym with 2 meals left in the day. Or maybe not. I'll have to ask him. Let you know if he gives me a specific!

Protein synthesis
Perhaps the most touted benefit of post-workout nutrient timing is that it potentiates increases in MPS. Resistance training alone has been shown to promote a twofold increase in protein synthesis following exercise, which is counterbalanced by the accelerated rate of proteolysis [36]. It appears that the stimulatory effects of hyperaminoacidemia on muscle protein synthesis, especially from essential amino acids, are potentiated by previous exercise [35,50]. There is some evidence that carbohydrate has an additive effect on enhancing post-exercise muscle protein synthesis when combined with amino acid ingestion [51], but others have failed to find such a benefit [52,53].

Several studies have investigated whether an “anabolic window” exists in the immediate post-exercise period with respect to protein synthesis. For maximizing MPS, the evidence supports the superiority of post-exercise free amino acids and/or protein (in various permutations with or without carbohydrate) compared to solely carbohydrate or non-caloric placebo [50,51,54-59]. However, despite the common recommendation to consume protein as soon as possible post-exercise [60,61], evidence-based support for this practice is currently lacking. Levenhagen et al. [62] demonstrated a clear benefit to consuming nutrients as soon as possible after exercise as opposed to delaying consumption. Employing a within-subject design,10 volunteers (5 men, 5 women) consumed an oral supplement containing 10 g protein, 8 g carbohydrate and 3 g fat either immediately following or three hours post-exercise. Protein synthesis of the legs and whole body was increased threefold when the supplement was ingested immediately after exercise, as compared to just 12% when consumption was delayed. A limitation of the study was that training involved moderate intensity, long duration aerobic exercise. Thus, the increased fractional synthetic rate was likely due to greater mitochondrial and/or sarcoplasmic protein fractions, as opposed to synthesis of contractile elements [36]. In contrast to the timing effects shown by Levenhagen et al. [62], previous work by Rasmussen et al. [56] showed no significant difference in leg net amino acid balance between 6 g essential amino acids (EAA) co-ingested with 35 g carbohydrate taken 1 hour versus 3 hours post-exercise. Compounding the unreliability of the post-exercise ‘window’ is the finding by Tipton et al. [63] that immediate pre-exercise ingestion of the same EAA-carbohydrate solution resulted in a significantly greater and more sustained MPS response compared to the immediate post-exercise ingestion, although the validity of these findings have been disputed based on flawed methodology [36]. Notably, Fujita et al [64] saw opposite results using a similar design, except the EAA-carbohydrate was ingested 1 hour prior to exercise compared to ingestion immediately pre-exercise in Tipton et al. [63]. Adding yet more incongruity to the evidence, Tipton et al. [65] found no significant difference in net MPS between the ingestion of 20 g whey immediately pre- versus the same solution consumed 1 hour post-exercise. Collectively, the available data lack any consistent indication of an ideal post-exercise timing scheme for maximizing MPS.

It also should be noted that measures of MPS assessed following an acute bout of resistance exercise do not always occur in parallel with chronic upregulation of causative myogenic signals [66] and are not necessarily predictive of long-term hypertrophic responses to regimented resistance training [67]. Moreover, the post-exercise rise in MPS in untrained subjects is not recapitulated in the trained state [68], further confounding practical relevance. Thus, the utility of acute studies is limited to providing clues and generating hypotheses regarding hypertrophic adaptations; any attempt to extrapolate findings from such data to changes in lean body mass is speculative, at best.

 

[SAD]

Not a flamer, but I do use my mind. You mentioned a "meal" and then posted up a bagel with PB and some whey protein and a banana. That's not a meal. That's a snack, and protein powder is useless and inferior IF you have the time to eat whole food, which you do when you're at home.

And I'll wholeheartedly disagree with Docd about "no bad carb". Anything that's loaded with gluten and grains is not nearly as good as something that's not. Pro-inflammatory gluten and grains, regardless of whether or not you have an allergy, are inferior to root carbs, such as sweet potatoes and white potatoes.

Bagels are crap. Carry on.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Not a flamer, but I do use my mind. You mentioned a "meal" and then posted up a bagel with PB and some whey protein and a banana. That's not a meal. That's a snack, and protein powder is useless and inferior IF you have the time to eat whole food, which you do when you're at home.

And I'll wholeheartedly disagree with Docd about "no bad carb". Anything that's loaded with gluten and grains is not nearly as good as something that's not. Pro-inflammatory gluten and grains, regardless of whether or not you have an allergy, are inferior to root carbs, such as sweet potatoes and white potatoes.

Bagels are crap. Carry on.

Inflammation is a necessary bodily response, unless an allergy predisposes you to issues, there is nothing wrong with gluten. While you are worrying about limiting inflammation, I will reap the benefits of increased muscle protein synthesis that a normal/physiologic response to inflammation can provide

-Anti inflammatory nation:
Anti inflammatory drugs are some of the most used in the world. If something hurts, pop an ibuprofen and get better. Get injured, sprain a muscle, or sprain an ankle? Take some NSAIDs, reduce the inflammation, and get better. The theory is that if we reduce the inflammation, it’ll speed healing.

The problem with that theory is that the inflammatory response is one of the body’s natural responses to actually increase healing. Let’s take a look at how that process works and what anti-inflammatories actually do.

The process of inflammation and anti-inflammatories:
When you do a damaging workout or have an acute injury, your body goes through a nice little cycle that is initially pro-inflammatory and then eventually switches to anti-inflammatory. It’s an interesting little cycle that is akin to how our medical world works. We start with an emergency first responder team (leukocytes and monocytes) that responds quickly, followed by what we might relate to as your initial hospital stay (macrophages). From there, we go into a regeneration and repair state. For the technical details I’ll turn to the study by Urso (2013):

“The first inflammatory cells to arrive to the site of injury are polymorphonuclear leukocytes, which are eventually replaced by monocytes within hours of the injury. Over the next 24-48 hours these cells transform into macrophages which phagocytose and remove necrotic tissue .Macrophages, along with fibroblasts and the extracellular matrix, also produce growth factors, cytokines, and chemokines (59, 76, 99). It is these factors that activate regenerative mechanisms such as myogenic factors and satellite cells. During the repair phase, satellite cells proliferate and differentiate into myoblasts which fuse with injured myofibers (39, 54). In cases where the injury damages the basal lamina, a connective tissue scar is formed from fibrin and fibronectin (22, 40). While this scar tissue strengthens the muscle during contractions as the muscle heals, if there is continued injury to the muscle and excessive proliferation of fibroblasts, a dense scar tissue may form which interferes with the repair process and contributes to incomplete functional recovery (89).”

Traditionally, for injury, the idea has been to limit inflammation. As Urso (2013) points out, this might not be such a good idea, and perhaps the better question is not if we should, but at what point during this cycle may it be beneficial.

Let’s look at how anti-inflammatories impact the above cycle.

Cox-1 vs. Cox-2
Most anti-inflammatory drugs work as cycloocygenase (COX) inhibitors. There are multiple forms of COX in the body. If we look at what ones are elevated post exercise, it is mostly COX-1. NSAIDs are generally non-specific COX inhibitors or COX-2 inhibitors. Therefore, depending on the drug taken, it can either have an impact on inflammation in response to exercise, or not.

When COX is inhibited, what it does is inhibits that inflammatory cascade. For example, PGE2 is decreased which in turn decreases some of the interleukin response. Some of the IL’s in turn play a role in adapting to exercise.

Blocking inflammation: Adaptation and Repair
So what’s the deal and why is it bad? The reason blocking inflammation might be bad is because of the effect on adaptation and recovery. Simply put, muscle damage is one of the key signals for adaptation. If enough damage occurs, and inflammatory markers are released, then it induces a signaling cascade that eventually results in adaptation to make sure the body/muscle is prepared for that amount of damage in the future. All those neat inflammatory markers like Interleuken’s (IL), cytokines, etc. all are potential triggers for some downstream adaptation. It’s a cascade of events that changes everything.
What the research has shown is that dampening the inflammatory response will:

-Decrease protein synthesis
-impair mitochondrial adaptations (in mice)
-impaired satellite cell increase (in animals)
-alterations in glucose metabolism (in animals)

For example, Research has shown that taking a NSAID will dampen down the increase in muscle protein synthesis post workout. An inhibition of muscle protein synthesis means less repair and regeneration. In addition it means that on the see saw between protein synthesis and degradation, the body stays on the degradation side of the balance for just a bit longer. On the same side of things, satellite cell activity (which plays a vital role in muscle growth) is inhibited if the inflammation signal is taken away.

Inferiority is context dependent. You cannot make a blanket statement like that without providing context.

Considering the most recent studies show that around 1% of the population is suffering from Celiac disease and the gluten-TOLERANT population is in excess of 90%, considering dietary adherence is based a great deal on enjoying foods and not avoiding them, considering grains and glutens contain a vast array of phytonutrients and zoo nutrients that can help optimize health (if not allergic), considering "multiple beneficial effects attributed to the beta-glucan content, and other non-essential components of oats. These benefits range from appetite control (as indicated by increases in peptide Y-Y) to enhanced immune response, and improvements in blood lipid profile and glucose control" for example, and considering you made an absolutist statement which is indefensible as there is more than one instance in which grains may be better than root carbs I believe your statement to not be wholly correct.

Furthermore, you are looking at single food items in isolation. A case can be made for any food to be bad in this light. WhAts important is to judge the food item in the context of the entire diet. Not illogically state anything with grains is not as good as no grains.

Sage words:

All foods in isolation can’t be judged without knowing their proportional contribution to the diet. Even seemingly “bad” foods such as donuts can be perfectly neutral (& even beneficial in a psychological sense) as long as they only comprise a minority of the diet. There’s no compelling research evidence suggesting that a diet whose composition is 80-90% whole & minimally refined foods (with the rest coming from miscellaneous indulgent foods) is not prudent enough to maximize health, particularly in physically active populations. Moderation & not tagging any foods as taboo or off-limits is the best way to sustain good dietary habits in the long-term.

SAD, are you a paleo dieter??

 

[Tiny Calves]

Bagel is 300 easy cals that isn't going to leave me too full to eat again in an hour. I'm starting to get your username, ya big grump!

DrD I <3 you, good read. Making an attempt to gather insight on the internet is like sitting by a flowing river of shit. Every now and then you can see a nugget of knowledge and pick it out, but mostly it's just shit. You sir always dish out pure gold. </kissass>

 

[Bro Bundy]

Bagel is 300 easy cals that isn't going to leave me too full to eat again in an hour. I'm starting to get your username, ya big grump!

DrD I <3 you, good read. Making an attempt to gather insight on the internet is like sitting by a flowing river of shit. Every now and then you can see a nugget of knowledge and pick it out, but mostly it's just shit. You sir always dish out pure gold. </kissass>

try sweet potato as your long carb ..make them abs pop

 

[Tiny Calves]

try sweet potato as your long carb ..make them abs pop

Yeah I have a range of things I use for carbs that was just an example.

Red/Blue potatoes
Sweet Potatoes, Yams
3 pieces of wheat bread
3oz quinoa weighed dry
kidney/black beans

 

[SAD]

Here we go with Docd's pedantic, didactic diatribes that are supposed to shut people up and make him the ultimate authority. I thought you would've realized by now that that doesn't work on me.

I'm the last person to take ibuprofen for inflamed joint or muscle pain. I've had PRP done to my left knee and if you're familiar with the process, the whole idea is to create inflammation and flood the area with platelet rich plasma so that the healing response is magnified. But that's not the inflammation we're talking about here Doc. NSAIDs don't touch inflammation caused by grains, excess omega 6s and 9s, and gluten. Two different worlds that share the word inflammation and that's it. In fact, Paleo diets recommend not taking NSAIDs for some of the very reasons you listed. So that whole long quote isn't even relevant.

Now that I got the bulk of your C/P post out of the way, I can address where you actually wrote things yourself. I stand by my statements wholeheartedly. Grains are not a good source of carbs. There are many, better, healthier choices. I will not make this post unnecessarily long and wordy, and thus I will leave you to google the overwhelming empirical evidence that shows grains are NOT what they've been cracked up to be by the decades of FDA's food-pyramid-based eating recommendations. Yes, this is a Paleo principle, but I do not follow it because it's Paleo. I follow it because it is SCIENCE, which you love so much, and because I've tried both ways (and so have tens of thousands of others) and the difference is not only noticeable, but profound. My father dropped 50 pounds, was able to stop taking his arthritis and diabetes medications, and feels significantly better since he made ONE SINGLE CHANGE.....HE STOPPED EATING GRAINS OF ANY SORT.

That said, I do adhere to a 95/5 rule, meaning if I eat 19 straight meals and don't touch breads or pastas (I don't exclude rice because I respond very well to it), then on my 20th meal I'll pig the fvck out on whatever I want. And no, I don't actually count meals like that, but that's the gist of it.

You take your nickname way too serious. You're not a doctor. You're just a good author that google's the hell outta stuff until you find something that backs you up. There is simply too much evidence against grains for anyone as smart as you to really believe that pasta and bread is as good (and "better in some cases" you said, smh) as sweet potatoes and other roots.

Still got love for you Doc, but get off your high horse for a little bit and come down here with us regular folks that also know a thing or two and can admit when we're wrong.




Tiny Calves, you have no idea what my nickname comes from. There's a reason it's in all caps, because it's an acronym. It stands for Super Angry Dude......wait, was it Sucks A Dick? Anyway, you'll get used to me. But don't ever compare what I write to a "flowing river of shit" again. Best of luck.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Here we go with Docd's pedantic, didactic diatribes that are supposed to shut people up and make him the ultimate authority. I thought you would've realized by now that that doesn't work on me.

I'm the last person to take ibuprofen for inflamed joint or muscle pain. I've had PRP done to my left knee and if you're familiar with the process, the whole idea is to create inflammation and flood the area with platelet rich plasma so that the healing response is magnified. But that's not the inflammation we're talking about here Doc. NSAIDs don't touch inflammation caused by grains, excess omega 6s and 9s, and gluten. Two different worlds that share the word inflammation and that's it. In fact, Paleo diets recommend not taking NSAIDs for some of the very reasons you listed. So that whole long quote isn't even relevant.

Now that I got the bulk of your C/P post out of the way, I can address where you actually wrote things yourself. I stand by my statements wholeheartedly. Grains are not a good source of carbs. There are many, better, healthier choices. I will not make this post unnecessarily long and wordy, and thus I will leave you to google the overwhelming empirical evidence that shows grains are NOT what they've been cracked up to be by the decades of FDA's food-pyramid-based eating recommendations. Yes, this is a Paleo principle, but I do not follow it because it's Paleo. I follow it because it is SCIENCE, which you love so much, and because I've tried both ways (and so have tens of thousands of others) and the difference is not only noticeable, but profound. My father dropped 50 pounds, was able to stop taking his arthritis and diabetes medications, and feels significantly better since he made ONE SINGLE CHANGE.....HE STOPPED HE GRAINS OF ANY SORT.

That said, I do adhere to a 95/5 rule, meaning if I eat 19 straight meals and don't touch breads or pastas (I don't exclude rice because I respond very well to it), then on my 20th meal I'll pig the fvck out on whatever I want. And no, I don't actually count meals like that, but that's the gist of it.

You take your nickname way too serious. You're not a doctor. You're just a good author that google's the hell outta stuff until you find something that backs you up. There is simply too much evidence against grains for anyone as smart as you to really believe that pasta and bread is as good (and "better in some cases" you said, smh) as sweet potatoes and other roots.

Still got love for you Doc, but get off your high horse for a little bit and come down here with us regular folks that also know a thing or two and can admit when we're wrong.





Tiny Calves, you have no idea what my nickname comes from. There's a reason it's in all caps, because it's an acronym. It stands for Super Angry Dude......wait, was it Sucks A Dick? Anyway, you'll get used to me. But don't ever compare what I write to a "flowing river of shit" again. Best of luck.

Thank you for being an adult through this...