Thanks for this DatBtrue. For those of you who want to truly understand how this all works together please read the links that Dat provides in this post.

"I hate people that are gurus because they usually don't know what the hell they are talking about. What I've always tried to do is point to the science and let people "understand" things on there own.

My thread at PM contains a lot of knowledge about many things beyond just peptides including insulin.

So lets start first with the myth that GH & Insulin can not be used together. Do people even understand that the GH ligand is only half of the equation? GH needs a receptor to bind to. Do they know how to increase GH-receptors? How about increasing GH receptor expression.

Since I just now decided to toot my own horn ...toot toot... let me also say the same applies to testosterone. There is a simple way to increase androgen receptors expression. No I'm not going into that... I just marvel at the guys who are gurus that don't understand these simple things...

First a response from Dr. Crisler who addressed this doctor myth about separating insulin & GH. He was responding to my post on how insulin effects GH-receptor expression.

Here is Dr. Crisler's response to my post which I will summarize afterwords:

* So much for the Anti-Aging Medicine doctors out there who tell their patients who take GH in the morning to not eat until a couple hours after their shot.

Their reasoning (if you call it that LOL) is insulin blocks the IGF-1 receptor, even though the affinity for same is 2 to 3 orders of magnitude less (at appropriate serum concentrations) than it is for IGF-1.

Applying Farmer's Logic, how long would it be then since you last ate?

You need SOME insulin (but not too much), like it is for estrogen

The point is that doctors that perpetuate the "don't eat or increase insulin with GH" are wrong.

Dr. Crisler was responding to my post which discussed a study which focused on the need for insulin to increase GH-receptors. In other words insulin increases GH-receptor synthesis. However at some point the amount of insulin that is administered begins to have a negative consequence. This negative consequence is that higher amounts of insulin will start to inhibit the birth of those newly created GH-receptors.

So to summarize insulin increases the synthesis of GH-receptors which will be available to bind to the GH ligands. This is good. At some point though high levels of insulin will stop those newly created receptors from making their way to the cell surface. This is bad.

So I undertook to calculate the point where insulin would shift from being a positive to a negative. My conclusion:

* Therefore the point at which the amount of insulin in plasma becomes a negative rather then a positive is approximately 7.5 to 9 IUs.

So to arrive at a net benefit an insulin amount below that threshold point such as 5-6 ius is desirable.

All of this is only focusing on insulin's effect on increasing GH-receptors. Which is positive to a point and negative beyond that point.

In addition Dr. Crisler underscores the point that insulin at moderate dose will not interfere with IGF-1 binding to a receptor.

What we didn't discuss was that IGF-1 is not synthesized straight away all at once by GH. Rather GH sets in motion a chain of events that results in IGF-1 synthesis over a long period of time. Not minutes...but rather hours even a day+. That is one reason why IGF-1 levels build up every day that you take GH until they plateau about a week out.

So tell me how insulin use concurrent w/ GH can effect eventually binding of newly created IGF-1 to its receptor.

If you follow that reasoning you should NEVER take insulin. The truth is you can take it together w/ GH or 30 minutes later or in between GH pulses.

Okay this is one thing that insulin does but there so many more things to that insulin does. Do people even know what GH does by itself, what insulin does by itself, what all sorts of things do by themselves. How about if you combine them?

I would copy my posts on this from PM but the formating is lost so I'll just post the links (it is formatted by me to be highly readable & well worth the time to read by anyone who wants to truly understand):

The above post covers:

* Insulin
* Growth Hormone
* Amino Acid Pool
* Exercise
* Blood Flow
* IGF-1
* Androgens
* Thyroid Hormones"