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Thread: PEG MGF vs. MGF

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    PEG MGF vs. MGF

    There are 2 forms of MGF. there is MGF and PEG MGF. Regular MGF has a very short half-life of only a few minutes (7, I think), so MGF shoud ideally be injected about 2 hours post workout. This allows your vody to release its own MGF first, followed by a 2nd blast of your exogenous source. If you inject MGF immediately after your workout, you will blunt your body's own natural release, so this is why O advise waiting about 90-120 after you train.

    Technically, you could inject MGF at "any" time during your recovery period and still reap its benefits, but best results seem to be noticed if you inject it either the day of the qworkout (post-workout) or the day after tgraining that particular msucle. My personal preference with regular MGF would be the day of the workout, about 90-120 minutes after completion of your training.

    When using PEG MGF, my recommendations are much the same, but since it lasts so much longer, you are going to want to wait at least 24 hours before using any type IGF-1. With regular MGF, since its half-life is so short, you could inject it post-workout and then inject IGF-1 just 15 minutes after it.

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    Looking at MGF

    Mechano Growth Factor (MGF) also known as IGF-1Ec is a growth factor/repair factor that is derived from exercised or damaged muscle tissue, Its called MGF as IGF-1Ec is a bit of a mouthful and harder to identify amongst the other igf variants.
    What makes MGF special is its unique role in muscle growth.
    MGF has the ability to cause wasted tissue to grow and improve itself by activating muscle stem cells and increasing the upregulation of protein synthesis, this unique ability can rapidly improve recovery and speed up muscle growth.
    MGF can initiate muscle satellite (stem) cell activation in addition to its IGF-Ireceptor domain which ithen in turn ncreases protein synthesis turnover, and therefore can if used correctly improve muscle mass over time.
    The liver produces 2 kinds of MGF splice variants of igf..
    1) IGF-1Ec This is the first phase release igf splice variant and it appears to stimulate satellite cells into activation, This is the closest variant to synthetic MGF.

    2) liver type IGF-IEa this is the secondary release of igf from the liver, and its far less anabolic.

    MGF differs from the second variant IGF-IEa as it has a different peptide sequence which is responsible for replenishing the satellite cells in skeletal muscle, in other words it is more anabolic and longer acting than the systematic release of the second MGF liver variant.

    So just think of MGF as a highly anabolic variant of igf. After you have trained, the IGF-I gene is spliced towards MGF then that causes hypertrophy and repair of local muscle damage by activating the muscle stem cells as well as other important anabolic processes, including the above mentioned protein synthesis, and increased nitrogen retention.

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    Using MGF

    Now when you train what happens to your muscles, they break down, the cells are damaged, muscle tissue needs to be repaired and your body produces 2 forms of MGF splice variant, The first initial release of the above mentioned number 1 variant from the liver helps muscle cell recovery, if there is no MGF then muscle cells die, thats the large and small of it.

    As muscle is a post-mitotic tissue and as such cell replacement is not a means of tissue repair , If the cells are not repaired they die and your muscles get smaller and weaker.
    The muscle The pool of these stem cells is apparently replenished by the action of MGF, which is produced as a pulse following damage.

    Now with synthetic injections of MGF you can increase the pulse and so speed up recovery, and increase the muscle tissue cells by stimulating satelite cells into full maturity. 200mcg bi lateraly is the very best choice of dosing in muscles trained.
    Thew only problem with MGF and this is the reason i dont like it, is that it has such a short half life, just a few minutes, between 5-7, and it needs to be used immediatley post workout as it wont work if muscle tissue hasnt been damaged, thats why for me personaly i think the best option is PEG MGF.

    When using MGF thats pegylated thats the addition of Polyethylene glycol, its a non toxic additive that increased the half life of MGF from minutes to hours.

    This means its uses and versatility make it a tremendous addition to a bodybuilders aresnal.
    I have found it most effective as its effects are systematic, that means they have a whole body effect wherever muscle has been damaged or is diseased.

    The next aspect we need to look at is how to make the most use of a long acting version of MGF.
    When your muscle is damaged your body releases a pulse of an MGF splice variant as i outlined above, followed by a less anabolic longer acting version from the liver... So it seems a waste to inject MGF at this time as you will just blunt your bodys own release, your not enhaning it.

    So using PEG MGF on non workout days is actualy the very best route, the muscle has been damaged, so there are plenty of receptors for MGF, the effects are systematic so all muscles will be helped to recover through increased nitrogen retention, protein turnover, and satelite cell activation.

    Recovery is just going to sky rocket. Doing this means your increasing the length of your bodys own mechanism for muscle repair and growth, your opening up the anabolic window.

    Running PEG MGF in synergy with IGF is perfect but there are things you need to know.
    If you dose them at the same time, as IGF has such strong receptor affinity, The effectivness of MGF will just be wasted.

    A good option is: IGF DES on workout days Pre workout, or IGF1-LR3 this wont blunt your bodys own MGF release from the liver, and whereas IGF1-LR3 has a more systematic effect and only a very small localised anabolic effect, DES on the other hand is verty anabolic in a localised way, so bring up lagging muscle parts with DES, and then the following day Dose MGF at 200-400mcg subq to increase recovery and the mechanism for growth. Perfect synergy.

    To store MGF and re-con:
    1ml of BA water for every 2mg is optimal. Storage in the fridge for up to 6 months. Avoid exposure to heat or sunlight.

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    MORE INFO...


    Let’s start with an explanation of Mechano Growth Factor (MGF) and what it does. The muscle insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) mRNA splice variant (IGF-IEc) has been identified in rodents. IGF-IEc, also called mechano growth factor (MGF) has been found to be up-regulated by exercise or muscle damage. Growth hormone (GH) is the principal regulator of IGF-I expression in several tissues including the skeletal muscle.

    MGF is derived from IGF-I but its sequence differs from the systemic IGF-I produced by the liver. MGF is expressed by mechanically overloaded muscle and is involved in tissue repair and adaptation. It is expressed as a pulse following muscle damage and is apparently involved in the activation of muscle satellite (stem) cells. These donate nuclei to the muscle fibres that are required for repair and for the hypertrophy processes which may have similar regulatory mechanisms (Goldspink, G., 2005, p. 22).

    The C-terminal peptide MGF, an alternatively spliced variant IGF-1, was found to function independently from the rest of the molecule. At any rate, IGF-I exists in multiple isoforms (tissue-specific proteins of functional and structural similarity). One isoform, which differs from the systemic or liver type, happens to be particularly sensitive to mechanical signals such as the gamut of exercise overload. MGF is a local splice variant of IGF-I produced by damaged or loaded skeletal muscle (Dluzniewska J, et al.., 2005 p. 1).

    The physiological function of MGF was studied using an in vitro cell model. Unlike mature IGF-I, the distinct E domain of MGF inhibits terminal differentiation whilst increasing myoblast proliferation. Blocking the IGF-I receptor with a specific antibody indicated that the function of MGF E domain is mediated via a different receptor. The results provide a basis for localized tissue adaptation and helps explain why loss of muscle mass occurs in the elderly and in dystrophic muscle in which MGF production is markedly affected (Yang SY, Goldspink G., 2002, p. 156-60).

    Ok, enough of the science. I am sure your brain is probably hurting after reading that, I know mine was. In really simple terms, MGF is a variant of IGF-1, an isoform that is particularly sensitive to muscle trauma (weight training) and is essential for repair and growth of new cells, similar in manner to IGF-1. What you need to know is MGF triggers new cell growth or hyperplasia in rat testing, and since we as bodybuilders fancy ourselves as lab rats, it is currently the in vogue peptide by top amateurs and pro’s.

    Well all of this sounds great but what is the catch? This is where we reach a cross-road, a potential problem with MGF. As great as MGF has been in clinical trials and rat studies, the fact is that injected MGF has a half life of minutes….yes minutes. So how are you going to make this work, besides injecting every hour or so of your waking day? The answer lies in a little known molecule protection agent knows as PEGylation.

    So what is or PEGylation? In simple terms it is the process of attaching one or more chains of a substance called polyethylene glycol (PEG) to a protein molecule such as IGF or in this case MGF. Since the body does not react to PEG, it helps provide a protective barrier around an attached protein so it can survive in the body longer. This is highly beneficial for systemic products that must survive repeated attacks by enzymatic exposure. PEG is an inert non-toxic substance that can provide protection to amine groups since they are flexible and allow attachment by bioengineered processes to the receptor bearing cell. Finally a quick explanation of polyethylene glycol; Any of a family of high molecular weight compounds that can be liquid or wax-like in consistency and are soluble in water and in many organic solvents.

    Polyethylene glycol itself does not react in the body and is very safe. PEG has been approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) as a base or vehicle for use in foods and cosmetics and in injectable, topical, rectal and nasal pharmaceutical formulations. The risk associated with current PEGylated drugs are due to the way the drug itself acts not the PEG.

    PEGylation can improve dosing convenience of many small molecules by increasing bioavailability and reducing dosing frequency. PEGylation also increases the amount of time the cell sits at the target site. This can be both good and bad. It is good because it increases the drug concentration, and with a longer time at the site, there is more chance of uptake by the cell. The bad news is that while it is sitting at the cell, there is increased risk of damage by enzymes that attack the cell. This is a double-edge sword that is a necessary evil; you must protect the molecule but at the same time increase the risk factor of damage due to longer exposure times at the target cell. As a result of the increased time at the cell, the optimal drug concentration can be achieved with less frequent dosing; a significant benefit to bodybuilders who are usually using poly-pharmacy at its finest.

    PEGylated MGF is systemic in nature, meaning that the method of administration is not important. Most people are using MGF in a fashion similar to IGF, meaning they inject the peptide intramuscularly in recently trained muscle groups, hoping for an increase in cell repair and proliferation of new cells. While this thinking is optimistic at best, there is no research that would support site specific injections being beneficial for localized growth. This is a myth that has purveyed aas and peptide use for years. At this time, the literature and lab studies support subcutaneous injection, using small gauge insulin syringes.

    Obviously there are no human research trials at this time; the peptide is still in research phases. Bodybuilder use at this time is all by trial and error. One company that currently carries MGF has conducted their own research trials, using test participants from underground steroid boards who are providing feedback in weekly intervals. While this is hardly a controlled environment and may have to many variables to accurately assess the product, at least it is a start.

    I have also been conducting my own research, on myself and my clients, who often refer to themselves as Gavin’s guinea pigs. As with most peptides, more is not better. Smaller doses with less frequent injection schedules have proven to be optimal. I personally have been using 200mcg injected sub-q, two times per week. I have had my clients try 100mcg, two times per week, three times per week, daily, etc. So far the best results have been my personal method, 200mcg, two times per week.

    Elite athletes are experiencing incredible body fat loss, increased pumps, fullness, and vascularity. I was able to gain 6 pounds of lean mass and lose 4.2% body fat in 4 weeks of use. I kept using it for weeks 5 and 6 but with no further gains or body fat loss. It seems that MGF stalls out at the 4 week mark, my theory being that much like with media grade IGF-1 LR3, the cells reach super saturation and cannot process any further uptake of the peptide sequence. It is possible to bypass this saturation, but it will take some time to work out the differential nature of the timing, much like I had to do with IGF-1 LR3, where I have now found ways to take it for up to 20 weeks with little to no cell down-regulation.

    At this time all use and injection schedules are by word of mouth, sometimes by erroneous information on underground boards. Proper use of MGF is merely by speculation; it will take some time to sort out the best method of administration, although with the ever changing world of science, where nothing ever stands still, it may take years to sort out optimal dosing schedules. Even with such stable peptide structures as growth hormone that have had years of research, new information is always being studied, and I speculate that it will with all peptides.

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    MORE INFO>>


    Two forms of IGF-1 have been discovered that have different mechanisms of action. The first form, IGF-1Ea, has a similar structure to the major form produced in the liver. It’s been termed the muscle-liver type IGF-1 as it’s produced not only in the liver, but in muscle as well. The other form of IGF-1 has been termed IGF-1Ec, also known as Mechano Growth Factor (MGF), as it’s only markedly upregulated in response to exercise and/or muscle damage. Both MGF and muscle-liver type IGF-1 are increased in muscle in response to muscle loading, but have different biological effects. In vitro (test tube) studies have shown that when MGF is added to muscle satellite cells, the cells rapidly increase in number, but they don’t become mature muscle stem cells until muscle-liver IGF-1 is added to the test tube. When muscle-liver IGF-1 is added, it causes an increase in cell density and satellite cells fuse with muscle fibers.17 MGF’s main role is to initiate satellite cell activation to kick-start the muscle growth process, while muscle-liver type IGF-1 promotes differentiation of immature satellite cells into mature muscle fibers.7 MGF is expressed before muscle-liver type IGF-1 in muscle, which suggests that they work independently of each other.


    Recent research has shown that MGF is expressed in muscle soon after damage, which occurs at the same time satellite cells become activated. MGF is considered the “growth pulse” that activates the initial spark to activate satellite cells, but it lasts just a few days. Later, several days after the initial muscle damage, MGF levels begin to decline while muscle-liver type IGF-1 levels start to rise in muscle (research suggests 7-11 days later). It’s thought that the MGF gene is expressed first, then is spliced toward the muscle-liver type IGF-1, which is more abundant in muscle and therefore, the major supplier of mature IGF-1, which upregulates protein synthesis.8
    GH has been shown to produce large increases in serum IGF-1 from the liver, yet muscle hypertrophy from GH alone is controversial and modest at best, but the serum levels of IGF-1 in the blood are a fraction of the muscle-produced IGF-1 levels.10 When GH was administered to elderly men, there were large increases in liver-muscle specific IGF-1, with only small increases in MGF.10 This could be the reason GH has such a poor effect on increasing muscle hypertrophy, as a more specific drug that increases MGF is needed.

    Testosterone is a potent stimulator of muscle hypertrophy, as there’s a dose-dependent increase in muscle fiber hypertrophy and satellite cell number. Testosterone-induced skeletal muscle hypertrophy is associated with increased satellite cell replication and activation.19 The big question that needs to be researched is, “Does testosterone increase MGF”? So, what happens when you compare MGF and muscle-liver type IGF-1 head-to-head? Although both have anabolic effects in muscle, muscle-liver type IGF-1 takes months to develop muscle hypertrophy, while MGF makes the same increase in muscle mass in a few weeks.

    The study that should turn the heads of all bodybuilders was a head-to-head comparison of the two titans of anabolic growth: MGF versus muscle-liver type IGF-1. LET’S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!! MGF was inserted into rat leg muscles by intramuscular injection. This resulted in a 35 percent increase in the weight of the injected muscle within three weeks, and the analyses showed that this was due to an increase in the size of the muscle fibers.12 Additionally, there was a increase in muscle strength of 25 percent.
    Similar experiments by other groups have also been carried out using a viral construct containing the liver-muscle type of IGF-1, which resulted in a 15 percent increase in muscle mass, but this took over four months to develop.11 Hence, the dual role MGF plays in inducing satellite cell activation as well as protein synthesis suggests it’s much more potent than the muscle-liver type or IGF-IEa for inducing rapid hypertrophy.


    Eccentric Contractions Stimulate MGF Greater than Concentric Contractions

    MGF is stimulated by muscle damage. When a muscle is placed on stretch or for even greater effect, stretch combined with muscle contraction, it leads to a rapid increase in MGF.6 I know I’m beginning to sound like a broken record, stressing the need for bodybuilders to emphasize eccentric contractions in their training, but a new study suggests that eccentric contractions have far superior growth potential than concentric or isometric contractions. In a recent issue of the Journal of Applied Physiology, researchers reported that not only will performing eccentric contractions reduce myostatin expression (myostatin suppresses muscle growth), but heavy eccentric contractions also increase both muscle-liver type IGF-1 and MGF to a greater extent than concentric contractions.9 The researchers concluded that eccentric training appears to have the greatest potential for inducing muscle hypertrophy than any other training type.

    MGF— The Key to Reversing Muscle Loss?

    Older men can increase muscle mass, but it takes a whole hell of a lot longer than a teenager! Well, MGF might be the answer why. The resting levels of MGF in muscle are 100-fold lower than muscle-liver mediated IGF-1.7 Interestingly, resting levels of MGF aren’t different between young and older men at rest, but MGF isn’t increased in aging muscle after resistance exercise compared to young men. For example, young and elderly men performed 10 repetitions of leg extensions in which muscle biopsies were taken immediately post-exercise and examined for MGF gene responses. In young subjects, MGF mRNA levels were significantly increased in response to resistance exercise, but there was no significant change in older subjects. Furthermore, the muscle-liver type IGF-1 was unchanged in both groups.7

    There was a huge variation in the response among subjects— some young subjects increased MGF levels by as much as 864 percent after resistance exercise. In another study comparing MGF responses in older and younger men, 20 young men (20-35) and 18 older men (60-75) performed 3 sets x 8-12 repetitions to volitional fatigue of squats, leg presses and knee extensions. MGF increased by 49 percent in the young group of men, however, MGF didn’t increase at all in the older men.16 These human studies are in agreement with animal studies showing that older rats have a blunted MGF response to mechanical damage of muscle. For example, Owino, Yang and Goldspink studied the ability of muscle to express MGF as well as muscle-liver type IGF-1 at different ages of rats (young, middle-aged and old) in response to muscle overload. In young rats, when muscle was overloaded, MGF was rapidly increased in muscle. In middle-aged rats, the increase in MGF was moderate and in old rats, the MGF response was very low and attenuated.14 The young rats increased MGF levels by about 1,000 percent after five days of muscle overload, as opposed to older rats who had only an approximate 250 percent increase. These studies suggest that MGF is needed to initiate the hypertrophy response of muscle by activating satellite cells. But as we age, muscle MGF responses are blunted.

    GH is responsible for increasing IGF-1 in the liver, but the effects of GH on muscle hypertrophy have been controversial. Peripheral levels of IGF-1 may not be as important for muscle growth as growth factors produced in muscle as MGF. For example, mice that have been genetically engineered to not produce liver-mediated IGF-1 have normal bodyweights and muscle mass, despite low plasma levels of IGF-1.15 The study demonstrates the importance of locally produced IGF-1 in muscle— including MGF— for muscle growth and tissue maintenance.

    Most of the studies so far have been investigating the role of MGF as a treatment for muscle loss with aging. A recent study by Hammeed, et. al.,10 reported that GH administration can increase MGF levels. In that study, elderly men were assigned to three groups: 1) GH administration alone; 2) 12 weeks of resistance exercise alone, and 3) resistance exercise plus GH administration. After 12 weeks, GH alone caused MGF mRNA to be increased by 80 percent compared to baseline. Twelve weeks of resistance training alone significantly increased the mRNA expression of MGF by 163 percent and muscle-liver IGF-1 by 68 percent. However, after 12 weeks of training combined with GH treatment, MGF mRNA increased by 456 percent and muscle-liver IGF-I-E by 167 percent. The results of the study concluded that GH administration alone to elderly men increases mainly muscle-liver IGF-1 levels in muscle by 238 percent in elderly men, with small increases in MGF. The muscle-liver IGF-1 levels were found to be two- to three-fold higher than that of MGF after GH administration.

    Interestingly, the group that received GH combined with resistance exercise had larger increases in MGF compared to the group receiving GH or resistance exercise alone. The results seem to indicate that GH results in the upregulation of the IGF-1 gene in muscle. When GH is combined with resistance exercise, there’s a greater increase in MGF gene expression. When the researchers examined muscle hypertrophy, there was only a correlation between the changes in muscle MGF and muscle size, while there was no correlation between muscle-liver IGF-1 and muscle size. It could be that greater changes in MGF need to occur for older men to achieve substantial increases in muscle hypertrophy.

    What Happens IF MGF is Injected?
    It was interesting that when researchers compared resting levels of MGF in young and older men, there was no difference at rest. However, MGF expresses much more MGF after a single bout of resistance exercise, which may be the reason younger men make larger gains in muscle mass than older men after an identical training regimen. The resting levels of MGF are 100-fold lower than muscle-liver mediated IGF-1.7 MGF is only expressed in response to muscle damage, but if a bodybuilder were to inject MGF…well, let’s just say there would probably be some kick-ass muscle growth, as MGF not only activates satellite cells, but also upregulates protein synthesis in muscle.

    One study showed that the basal levels of MGF in muscle were directly related to muscle cross-sectional area (how big your muscles are).10 A leading pioneer in MGF research, Dr. Goldspink, noted that although his research has much more to learn about MGF, gene therapy has advantages over injecting the MGF peptide, as the peptide version would have to be administered more often.13 Dr. Goldspink has recommended that MGF, rather than the liver-muscle form of IGF-1, be used as a generic therapeutic agent for muscle wasting. Another big advantage that MGF has is that once injected into a muscle, it has direct anabolic actions that are site specific, without the worry of affecting other organs such as the prostate (as testosterone does). More human research needs to be conducted with MGF injections as only animal studies have been conducted, but the animal studies are impressive so far.

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    Mechano Growth Factor Steroid Informations
    MGF is a splice variant of the IGF gene which increases stem cell count in the muscle and allows for muscle fibers to fuse and mature. This is a process required for growth of adult muscle. Natural MGF is made locally and does not travel into the bloodstream. Synthetic MGF is water based and when administered intramuscularly, travels into the bloodstream. MGF is only stable in the blood stream for only a few minutes.

    PEGylation is the act of attaching a Polyethylene glycol (PEG) structure to another larger molecule (in this case, MGF). The PEG acts as a protective coating and the theory here is that this will allow the MGF to be carried through the blood stream without being broken down.

    PEG MGF Background
    I have to be honest here, and say that in my estimation, PEGylating MGF is basically something a research chemical company did to have a bit of a market with no competition for awhile. That?s not to say that it?s not a decent product, but honestly, in this particular case, I feel that marketing was in the drivers seat with the development of this version of MGF, and science was in the backseat asking ?are we there yet??.

    Mechano Growth Factor Action
    MGF is produced biologically when muscle fibers are broken down through resistance (weight training). It is a potent factor in muscle growth. MGF stimulates muscle growth, creates new muscle fibers, promotes nitrogen retention and increases protein synthesis. This compound is commonly used for overall growth of muscle and to promote growth in body parts that are not up to par with the rest of the user?s physique. Results usually depend on dosage. Fat loss and strength increases are not typically seen with MGF?s use (as they are in IGF-1 use).

    The PEG itself is safe for use as it is approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and does not react in the body. The PEG MGF is not broken down in the body and excreted (intact) through urine or feces. Any risk associated PEGylated drugs is due to drug itself not the PEG per se.

    PEG MGF Technical Data
    In a study on older rodents, muscle fiber reduction in their older muscles was found to be attributed to decreased activity of satellite cells. After a certain size was reached, growth ceased. In the presence of MGF, satellite cells became activated and hypertrophy in mature muscles continued.

    In experiments where MGF was administered intramuscularly, there was a 20% increase in the weight of the injected muscle fibers within 2 weeks. In further studies, it took 4 months for IGF to cause a 25% increase in muscle mass. MGF was found to be more potent than IGF-1Ea in rapid muscle growth (4).

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    to sum things up:

    Id rec using IGF LR3 & PEG MGF together. Lr3 on WO days/4 days a wk, PEG on off days or 3 days a wk.


    I dont care & dont think it matters all that much which one you use which day. So long as you are using the LR3 4 days a wk, PEG 3 days a wk.

    They need to be used at the same time ED because they both last about 24hrs and will cancel each other out if used at the wrong time. So if you are a AM workout person or after work at 5-6pm it doesnt matter.

    just use these peptides at the same time ED and you wont run into issues.

    LR3 should be used sub q. PEG MGF should be used IM, bi lat (yes it know its goes threw the entire body in 20 min, it still have site specific effects and that shouldnt be wasted)

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    Could you just do regular mgf two hours post work out subq?
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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    Originally Posted by Christosterone View Post
    Could you just do regular mgf two hours post work out subq?
    not sub q. IM

    reg mgf comes and goes in less than 10 min. so do it bi lat, IM. at least 100mcg each muscle. PEG mgf, lasting 20hrs or so just becomes so much more worth it.


    figure you have to use 100mcg in each arm, twice a day, once a wk. so you ll burn it up in 5wks and thats only arms. PEG will give total body growth and site growth.......


    something to think about.

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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    So pin peg in most worked muscle that day?
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    Re: PEG MGF vs. MGF

    yes 100-500mcg bi lat. yes, im saying to use 1000mcg a wk really.


    get like 4-5 vials peg mgf and 1 LR3

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    Great thread man this is why I came here ! You seem to be the guy with the knowledge

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