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  1. #21
    Elite Milo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrRippedZilla View Post
    That raises the question of why do many PLers bother with stuff like sled pulls, etc?
    If it's just about strength and hypertrophy, then focus on strength during the big 3 and do some hypertrophy assistance work and be done with it - yet a lot of PLers don't follow this minimalist approach.
    Maybe....just maybe...because improving your work capacity, something the kbell swing does VERY well, is a key part to PLing especially if you plan on progressively increasing training volume in a respectable amount of time. It also has a lot of benefits when it comes to neuromuscular stuff, a key part of 1RM testing.

    Andy Bolton and, IIRC, Donnie Thompson both incorporate kbell swings into their programmes and last time I checked they're both pretty decent pullers so to say the movement doesn't transfer over to PLing at all would be wrong.
    Can't use the argument that PL Timmy Tuckaroo does it so it's good to go. Even if they're powerlifting gods. Who knows WHY they use it?
    IMO sled pulls and prowler aren't good either. What is it accomplishing? Your time and energy should be spent either improving your lifts (sled and prowler do not), or recovering (sped and prowler do not). Why waste time and energy prepping for a higher work capacity? Just increase it.
    You'll have to explain the neuromuscular aspect of your post to me. If you're going with the "speed work" route, then there are better ways to do that without violating the principal of overload.
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    1: sled, prowler, tire flips, etc are far less boring than cardio.

    2: I want to still be PLing long after Eric lillibridge is dead


    That's why I do gpp off-peak. To not die as soon.
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  4. #23
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    I think the consensus of some is that conditioning must be specific to help better perform the function that an athlete is training for. Powerlifters functions are, squat, deadlift, bench. Perfect example, everybody who has used Pillar knows about the 15 doubles. Omg! By incorporating the 15 doubles wirh CRPT ( controlled Rest Period Training) this is a very effective, and specific way of improving a powerlifters conditioning. 45 seconds rest, 15 doubles, using RPE, kicked my ass and definitely helped improve my conditioning for these specific lifts.
    "The weight teaches you"
    The more you treat each rep independently, as its own workout, the better.

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  6. #24
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    But outside of my example above, I love the prowler, hill sprints, tire flips. The pumps from them are amazing. Heart beating fast and body just swells. Gotta love that shit!
    "The weight teaches you"
    The more you treat each rep independently, as its own workout, the better.

  7. #25
    Elite Milo's Avatar
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    I guess we have to be clear on what we're talking about here. GPP/SPP to better PL performance, or for general good health.
    Don't be a pussy. Crack a high life. Pack a dip. Listen. Beat your ol' lady. Pet your dog.
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  8. #26
    Veteran MrRippedZilla's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Can't use the argument that PL Timmy Tuckaroo does it so it's good to go. Even if they're powerlifting gods. Who knows WHY they use it?
    IMO sled pulls and prowler aren't good either. What is it accomplishing? Your time and energy should be spent either improving your lifts (sled and prowler do not), or recovering (sped and prowler do not). Why waste time and energy prepping for a higher work capacity? Just increase it.
    You'll have to explain the neuromuscular aspect of your post to me. If you're going with the "speed work" route, then there are better ways to do that without violating the principal of overload.
    Your right, ancedotal evidence is insufficient but, luckily, every single study ever conducted has shown the kbell swing to increase max strength so its not like the objective data is against me here. Specifically, this paper showed an improvement in 1RM squat with 2xweek kbell training and NO direct squat work: Kettlebell swing training improves maximal and explosive strength

    Digging into the biomechanics of the swing it becomes clear WHY the outdated view of "the load isn't enough so the movement is useless" is nonsense.
    The hip-hinge style of kbell swing directly mimics the muscular recruitment achieved with a deadlift while the squat-stye swing mimics the muscular recruitment of the squat. The key difference is related to where the peak of muscular activity is achieved and that is exactly why this is a great assistance tool - your directly targeting a different part of the DL/SQ that would NOT be targeted at peak levels with the normal movement itself.
    More details on the biomechanical aspects of the swing can be found here:The Modified Kettlebell Swing

    When I say neuromuscular, I'm not talking about speed/power but more on impulse/changing momentum during a lift (the bottom of a squat for example).
    Not to get too technical but "impulse" takes into account the amount & duration of the applied force during a lift and is also what allows us to accelerate with linear momentum. In this very specific area of training, hip-hinged kbell swings have been shown to develop a great change in momentum compared to the jump squat:
    Mechanical demands of kettlebell swing exercise

    And you don't have to "violate the principle of overload". Overload does NOT refer only to weight but to all variables.

    So yes, I'm not saying everyone should hop on the kbell swing train - I'm simply making it very clear that the movement does indeed have direct value for a PLer.
    Last edited by MrRippedZilla; 11-11-2016 at 08:48 PM.
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  10. #27
    Elite Milo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MrRippedZilla View Post
    Your right, ancedotal evidence is insufficient but, luckily, every single study ever conducted has shown the kbell swing to increase max strength so its not like the objective data is against me here. Specifically, this paper showed an improvement in 1RM squat with 2xweek kbell training and NO direct squat work: Kettlebell swing training improves maximal and explosive strength

    Half squat? What is the training history of these 21 men? Someone with zero training history, that can perform a "proficient half squat" could benefit from ANY kind of training. Tell them to jump around like a monkey every 10 minutes would have them half squatting more by the end of the trial. For the PERFORMANCE ATHLETE, who has been training for years I think would benefit **** all from this study.

    Digging into the biomechanics of the swing it becomes clear WHY the outdated view of "the load isn't enough so the movement is useless" is nonsense.
    The hip-hinge style of kbell swing directly mimics the muscular recruitment achieved with a deadlift while the squat-stye swing mimics the muscular recruitment of the squat. The key difference is related to where the peak of muscular activity is achieved and that is exactly why this is a great assistance tool - your directly targeting a different part of the DL/SQ that would NOT be targeted at peak levels with the normal movement itself.
    More details on the biomechanical aspects of the swing can be found here:The Modified Kettlebell Swing

    When I say neuromuscular, I'm not talking about speed/power but more on impulse/changing momentum during a lift (the bottom of a squat for example).
    Not to get too technical but "impulse" takes into account the amount & duration of the applied force during a lift and is also what allows us to accelerate with linear momentum. In this very specific area of training, hip-hinged kbell swings have been shown to develop a great change in momentum compared to the jump squat:
    Mechanical demands of kettlebell swing exercise

    And you don't have to "violate the principle of overload". Overload does NOT refer only to weight but to all variables.

    So yes, I'm not saying everyone should hop on the kbell swing train - I'm simply making it very clear that the movement does indeed have direct value for a PLer.
    The rest is above my head so I don't have much to say about them.
    Don't be a pussy. Crack a high life. Pack a dip. Listen. Beat your ol' lady. Pet your dog.
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  11. #28
    Veteran MrRippedZilla's Avatar
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    The participants had 3 months of consistent training behind them before commencing the study - not great but its the best we have to go on if your looking for objective data (your the one who didn't want to look at the anecdotal stuff remember).
    I cannot comment on why the hell they decided to go with the half, rather than the full, squat but that in and of itself is not dismissive of the usefulness of kbell swings - if it improves the half squat it should improve the full squat for obvious reasons.

    Beyond that, I have nothing further to add. The data taken as a whole is enough for me to know that kbell swings do transfer over to PLing but, of course your entitled to disagree with me
    Proud misanthropist.

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  15. #30
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    Originally Posted by Milo View Post
    Maybe if we're talking about some heavy ass kettle bells. But even with the heaviest ones at my gym which are I think 80 pounds, I don't feel have much use. What's the ideal rep range for strength gain? 4-7ish? 8-12 for hypertrophy? That would have to be a heavy ass kettle bell.
    I used to have a goal of 5 min of continuous swings per day with a 44 lb kb (switching arms at the top of my swing every 10 reps)... I only made it to the full 5 minutes a few times and puked many many times... I was incredibly strong after a few months (especially my lock-out at the top) and I could run for miles without even breaking a sweat...
    "We are the white knights of the darker side of athletics." -HollyWoodCole

  16. #31
    Elite Milo's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by automatonDan View Post
    I used to have a goal of 5 min of continuous swings per day with a 44 lb kb (switching arms at the top of my swing every 10 reps)... I only made it to the full 5 minutes a few times and puked many many times... I was incredibly strong after a few months (especially my lock-out at the top) and I could run for miles without even breaking a sweat...
    That's great man. But again, I don't see how that transfers to PL. For general health and conditioning that's really good though.
    Don't be a pussy. Crack a high life. Pack a dip. Listen. Beat your ol' lady. Pet your dog.
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  17. #32
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    Originally Posted by MrRippedZilla View Post
    Your right, ancedotal evidence is insufficient but, luckily, every single study ever conducted has shown the kbell swing to increase max strength so its not like the objective data is against me here. Specifically, this paper showed an improvement in 1RM squat with 2xweek kbell training and NO direct squat work: Kettlebell swing training improves maximal and explosive strength

    Digging into the biomechanics of the swing it becomes clear WHY the outdated view of "the load isn't enough so the movement is useless" is nonsense.
    The hip-hinge style of kbell swing directly mimics the muscular recruitment achieved with a deadlift while the squat-stye swing mimics the muscular recruitment of the squat. The key difference is related to where the peak of muscular activity is achieved and that is exactly why this is a great assistance tool - your directly targeting a different part of the DL/SQ that would NOT be targeted at peak levels with the normal movement itself.
    More details on the biomechanical aspects of the swing can be found here:The Modified Kettlebell Swing

    When I say neuromuscular, I'm not talking about speed/power but more on impulse/changing momentum during a lift (the bottom of a squat for example).
    Not to get too technical but "impulse" takes into account the amount & duration of the applied force during a lift and is also what allows us to accelerate with linear momentum. In this very specific area of training, hip-hinged kbell swings have been shown to develop a great change in momentum compared to the jump squat:
    Mechanical demands of kettlebell swing exercise

    And you don't have to "violate the principle of overload". Overload does NOT refer only to weight but to all variables.

    So yes, I'm not saying everyone should hop on the kbell swing train - I'm simply making it very clear that the movement does indeed have direct value for a PLer.
    Thank you for posting this Zilla, I wanted to post something, but everything I have is in old books written by Pavel... Plus your info is way more scientific and informative...
    "We are the white knights of the darker side of athletics." -HollyWoodCole

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