Discussion on programming

PillarofBalance

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Shit is confusing. I just listen to POB.

Lol... it's worth doing your best to understand. Read zillas post again. It's not difficult.

Pay attention to the examples he shows. You can see in linear the number of reps goes down as the % goes up.

With dup the numbers are all over the place with both reps and %. To find out how many reps and sets with what percent you can use prilipen's chart.

Programming isn't the hard part of being the coach.
 

MrRippedZilla

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You mention dup for higher level lifters. Have you ever used this for a novice? Once technique is sound (enough) I have had a lot of success running my newer guys and girls through this.

After 10 weeks or so they are taking old maxes for doubles or triples.

I have found some success using a version of dup known as flexible nonlinear periodization but I put that down to the built in autoregulation aspect of the programme more than anything (individuals can pick which workout, with varying levels of intensity, they do & when they do it during the week).
I also use periodization based on menstrual cycles for women but this is a work in progress (women are complicated) and, frankly, I don't think you want me to start talking about menstrual cycles :)

Most of the time I do use a typical linear approach since I am a believer in keeping things as simple as possible for as long as possible. However, much like dietary approaches, the best training programme for each individual is the one they can adhere to....so I utilize dup & other forms of nonlinear periodization if its a better way to keep the client motivated & kicking ass in the gym.
Do I think one is better than the other for beginners? Not particularly. Now if we were talking about hypertrophy rather than strength...slightly different story.

I will add that I use autoregulation pretty much from the get go with clients I coach hands on because of the benefits you highlighted in an earlier post.
 

Strength athlete

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Auto regulation tends to bring about much quicker results as it allows you to lift what you want/can. Going by a % 1rm will bring steady progress but a bit slower usually.

Some haven't figured out how to create periodization with their rpe or rir systems and therefore it becomes linear progression. After some time progress will stop or go back just as you have seen.

Undulating assistance lifts, sets and reps and rpe of competition lifts will avoid this problem altogether.

One option is if you tend to do only 1 to 2 meets per year then do %1rm training in the off season and use rpe to peak. Or the opposite.

I tend to run my clients on a system that keeps them conditioned for a heavy triple. This way they can jump into a meet with only a few weeks notice. Tapering to a single is quick and almost painless.

Sorry it has taken me a while to reply to my own thread, but with my schedule I fight for the time to actually sit down and write. I vaguely remember my days of using the classical linear periodization. It seems like it has been many years ago...oh wait...it has. lol. For quite some time I used a standard block periodization model, and had decent results. Once I began having difficulties hitting pr's, I started experimenting with manipulating volume loads in different fashions, alternating exercise selection in blocks,etc., all while trying to stay true to the concentrated loading principles associated with each block of training. Although some variations produced better results than others, the training seemed to be very limited in the results I received. I am a very hard headed person, and since i WAS still making gains, it was difficult to give in, and consider another style of training. I had heard, and read some material on RPE in the past, but had never really given it much thought. I then began reading into some of the material that Mike T. had been putting out. After reading much of his work, and watching several of his videos, I began to understand the concepts, and decided to start implementing it into my own training. I have made slight adjustments here, and there of course, but have found it to produce better results than anything I have done over the past several years. Just as you have said, I began undulating my set/reps, and RPE's for primary, and assistance lifts. From my personal experiences, I also fully agree with your comment regarding conditioning for a heavy triple. I always structure my programs, so that I hit a heavy triple on a primary or assistance lift at least once a week. Depending on my fatigue deficit in that week, I often times do more.(I know many people have moved away from a calculated fatigue deficit, but I still find it to work for myself).
 

Strength athlete

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DUP = Daily undulating periodization
RIR = reps in reserve (another form of auto regulation where you save some reps, how many depends on a bunch of other things, in the tank to improve performance later on in a cycle)

A typical linear approach usually involves decreasing volume & increasing intensity from workout to workout, week to week, etc. This approach, as you may guess, isn't going to work for most people beyond the beginner stage because strength, or muscle, gains rarely come in a straight line like this and the sacrifice in volume for strength can limit hypertrophy.
Undulating periodization is one way to sidestep this issue.

Here is an example of both a linear & undulating approach for strength using a weekly programme (easier to demonstrate vs daily):

Linear -
4x10 @ 75%1RM for 4 weeks
3x8 @ 80%1RM for 4 weeks
3x5 @ 85%1RM for 4 weeks
3X3 @ 90%1RM for 4 weeks
As you can see, the intensity keeps going up while the volume drops.

Undulating:
3x12 @ 75%1RM for 2 weeks
5x5 @ 85%1RM for 2 weeks
4x8 @ 75%1RM for 2 weeks
5x5 @ 90%1RM for 2 weeks
4x5 @ 80%1RM for 2 weeks
6x3 @ 95%1RM for 2 weeks
Notice the more gradual changes in intensity/volume, the increase in variety, the wave like increases, etc - this is further emphasised with daily periodization using DUP. Its a much more realistic way of progressing in the gym for higher level lifters.

Hope that makes sense :)

Thank you for writing this up. Your description for defining linear and undulating was excellent and easy for everyone to understand.
 

PillarofBalance

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I have found some success using a version of dup known as flexible nonlinear periodization but I put that down to the built in autoregulation aspect of the programme more than anything (individuals can pick which workout, with varying levels of intensity, they do & when they do it during the week).
I also use periodization based on menstrual cycles for women but this is a work in progress (women are complicated) and, frankly, I don't think you want me to start talking about menstrual cycles :)

Most of the time I do use a typical linear approach since I am a believer in keeping things as simple as possible for as long as possible. However, much like dietary approaches, the best training programme for each individual is the one they can adhere to....so I utilize dup & other forms of nonlinear periodization if its a better way to keep the client motivated & kicking ass in the gym.
Do I think one is better than the other for beginners? Not particularly. Now if we were talking about hypertrophy rather than strength...slightly different story.

I will add that I use autoregulation pretty much from the get go with clients I coach hands on because of the benefits you highlighted in an earlier post.

Believe it or not menstrual cycles is actually a topic I need more info on lol... I have a couple female clients - not all of them that have really brutal periods. I try to keep them in the gym and use auto regulation - if a 9 on squats that day is 135 so be it. Sometimes we do a week of regression to practice things like hip hinges. Or sometimes we take the week to work out some of the pains in the hips, shoulders etc...

At least the week is predictable though...
 

MrRippedZilla

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Believe it or not menstrual cycles is actually a topic I need more info on lol... I have a couple female clients - not all of them that have really brutal periods. I try to keep them in the gym and use auto regulation - if a 9 on squats that day is 135 so be it. Sometimes we do a week of regression to practice things like hip hinges. Or sometimes we take the week to work out some of the pains in the hips, shoulders etc...

At least the week is predictable though...

Its gotten to the point where I'm now working with more girls then guys so I kind of had to go deep into the menstrual cycle stuff this year...hurts my head just thinking about it.

In general, I've seen better results placing the higher intensity sessions into the follicular phase (1st half) of a woman's cycle with the lower intensity stuff in the luteal phase (2nd half) - easier to do this with a weekly/monthly approach rather than dup for obvious reasons. Interestingly, their overall work capacity doesn't seem to be effected either way.
Figuring out whether each girl is androgen/estrogen/progesterone dominant takes some time but helps a lot since those who are more on the androgen/estrogen side seem to handle higher intensity programmes but crash more during the luteal phase (I've had girls lose 30% of the their working weight during this period) while those who are progesterone dominant tend to need more overall autoregulation and something like dup works fine with them.

Similar to your approach, I do take the time during the luteal phase to do some basic GPP work since women seem to be further behind in this aspect than men. We also work on controlling their better levels of mobility, extra hip external rotation work to counteract the wide hips, etc.

Overall, there is a lot of variability on whether women respond to menstrual periodization. Some see a huge difference, others see nothing at all....women are just more complicated than us :)
 
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SuperBane

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What I seem to have overlooked is how do you go about deciding how many reps and sets are correct for Dup?
What is the basis of that theory? Trying to google it now but not seeing what I think I am looking for.
Coming from linear based programs I assume where everything is based and rotated off of a one rep max. Slowly building up to an all out effort or max effort day. (Comp) (i.e. 5x5 531 cube)

I've switched to what seems to be a slight conjugate method for example two bench days during the week, the heavy day would be floor presses or board presses or inclines and the second day would be flat bench at x % and then hypertrophic work.

Probably not doing that correctly but I'm not competing neither...
 

DocDePanda187123

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What I seem to have overlooked is how do you go about deciding how many reps and sets are correct for Dup?
What is the basis of that theory? Trying to google it now but not seeing what I think I am looking for.
Coming from linear based programs I assume where everything is based and rotated off of a one rep max. Slowly building up to an all out effort or max effort day. (Comp) (i.e. 5x5 531 cube)

I've switched to what seems to be a slight conjugate method for example two bench days during the week, the heavy day would be floor presses or board presses or inclines and the second day would be flat bench at x % and then hypertrophic work.

Probably not doing that correctly but I'm not competing neither...

There is no universal correct reps and sets. Prilepin's table will help you figure out what volume to use at a given intensity but even that is subject to your personal goals. Someone with a strength goal will typically work with higher intensities than someone with aesthetic goals and vice versa.

Admin posted this link a while back in regards to a DUP question. It has some very good info on setting up a basic DUP template and then adapting it to suit your specific goals and experience.

http://www.jmaxfitness.com/blog/daily-undulating-periodization/
 

SuperBane

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Thanks Doc I will read it later.
 

PillarofBalance

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Bane - many use prilipen's chart. Even that has some drawbacks. It came from weightlifting. Their lifts are a split second. Versus in PL our sets take much longer and are therefore more stressful (maybe). Sometimes prilipen can be too much. But it's a good starting point for most.
 

SuperBane

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Thanks I will start there and keep that in mind and make adjustments accordingly.
 

Go Away

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This thread is gold - especially the women discussion part.
 

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