The Bro Split: why it sucks & better alternatives

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Noob questions are always welcomed, the whole point of these articles is to educate after all, so no need for the apology :)

Firstly, I will say that if stronglifts is working well for you then there is no need to switch anything - keep doing what works until it doesn't.
For my full body template, you would incorporate a mix of compound & iso work in each session. Transitioning from stronglifts it would probably look something like this:

Squats/deadlift
Bench/Overhead
Barbell row
Leg extension/calf raises
Lateral raises/chest flyes
Curls/face pulls
Abs/low back/core work (RKC planks, ab wheel, etc)

- 2-3 sets of 12-15, 5-6 sets of 3-5, 3-4 sets of 8-10 for the compound lifts.
- 1 set of 15-20, 2 sets of 8, 1-2 sets of 10-12 for accessory lifts.
- You can remove as much accessory work to make it all compound movements if you wish depending on your weaknesses, the template above is simply what most beginners choose/need to work on.
- You can also rotate movements in/out over 4-5 weeks so that you can build up your experience level and learn what works/doesn't work for you provided the movements have some degree of similarity (deadlift - RDL - SLDL, Row - Pendlay row - DB row - yates row, etc). I've simply used the compound lifts your used to as a demonstration in the template.

Thanks RippedZilla,

Good to see you on this board. I read some of your earlier articles from Steroidology and have a great deal of respect for your analysis.

I just got banned over at that board because the admin Milton had deleted my post where I gave my opinion on protein intake. When I PMed him and asked him why he is censoring me I got banned.

Then I created a new account and PMed him again asking him to explain what it is about my post that was grounds for it to be censored? And he banned me again. No explanation whatsoever.

All I said is that I thought anyone taking more than 2x their bodyweight in protein powder was wasting their money. And that was enough to get me censored. Unbelievable!
 

MrRippedZilla

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Thanks RippedZilla,
Good to see you on this board. I read some of your earlier articles from Steroidology and have a great deal of respect for your analysis.
I just got banned over at that board because the admin Milton had deleted my post where I gave my opinion on protein intake. When I PMed him and asked him why he is censoring me I got banned.
Then I created a new account and PMed him again asking him to explain what it is about my post that was grounds for it to be censored? And he banned me again. No explanation whatsoever.
All I said is that I thought anyone taking more than 2x their bodyweight in protein powder was wasting their money. And that was enough to get me censored. Unbelievable!

Consider that a blessing - that board has a terrible owner, terrible admin, mostly terrible sponsors and now, thanks partially to me & others, non-existent knowledgeable members so there is ZERO reason for anyone to spend any time there.

Welcome to UG :)
 
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Consider that a blessing - that board has a terrible owner, terrible admin, mostly terrible sponsors and now, thanks partially to me & others, non-existent knowledgeable members so there is ZERO reason for anyone to spend any time there.

Welcome to UG :)

I agree with you 100%. I will say one positive thing about that website and that is their Search Engine Optimization. Almost any Google search on aas cycles leads directly to their forum. But I can see its all a big funnel designed to get noobs to purchase from their crap sponsors. Thanks again for this routine. As you say I will stay on Stronglifts until I hit the wall and then switch over to your suggested Hypertrophy program. I have made steady and consistent gains on all the compound movements except those darn Overhead Press I have to use fractional plates and move up only 2lbs instead of in 5 lb increments each workout. I think I am g2g for at least 6 months or at least 4 months on Stronglifts. Started at 128lbs now up to 148lbs in bodyweight in 6 weeks. Bodyfat is close to 19% I am typical skinny-fat dude. In a T-shirt I look skinny. With no shirt my body has a pear shape with a big distended spare tire and love handles.

Sadly most of the weight is going to my spare tire and love handles. Only about 25% of the weight gain is going to my muscles, LoL
 

mrmichael

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Consider that a blessing - that board has a terrible owner, terrible admin, mostly terrible sponsors and now, thanks partially to me & others, non-existent knowledgeable members so there is ZERO reason for anyone to spend any time there.

Welcome to UG :)

MrRip. I been taking ur advice and swapped routines. I'm having trouble contacting u to ask u this question. So I'll just post it here again.

Mon & TH
Flat x3 4-12, Incline x2 6-12, Flies x2 8-15
Press x3 6-12, Front x2 8-15, Sides x2 8-15
Dips x3 10-15, Tri x2 10-15, Bar x2 10-15


Tues & FRI
Tbar x3 6-12, Rows x2 6-12, Wide x3 6-12, Close x2 6-12
Rear x3 6-12, Shrugs x3 6-12
Ez x3 6-12, Hammer x2 6-12, Rev Curls x2 6-12


WED & SAT
Hams x3 6-12, Squats x4 6-12, Quads x3 6-12
Calves x3 6-15
Upper x3 6-15, Lower x3 6-15, Obl x3 6-15

SUN: OFF


Setup: PPL,PPL, OFF

Would this routine work as a efficient PPL & Low volume setup for OPTIMAL growth on moderate dosage cycle?

Can u please ad in some feedback. Should I adjust the volume for certain exercises or what else do u think?

Thank u so much friend

PS: I am also a old user from the ology. Milton has been a pain on that forum and pretty much banned me on there and killed all my rep I earned.
Have u seen where halfwit went off to btw? It's a little off topic, but he was a good guy :p
 
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MrRippedZilla

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MrRip. I been taking ur advice and swapped routines. I'm having trouble contacting u to ask u this question. So I'll just post it here again.

Mon & TH
Flat x3 4-12, Incline x2 6-12, Flies x2 8-15
Press x3 6-12, Front x2 8-15, Sides x2 8-15
Dips x3 10-15, Tri x2 10-15, Bar x2 10-15


Tues & FRI
Tbar x3 6-12, Rows x2 6-12, Wide x3 6-12, Close x2 6-12
Rear x3 6-12, Shrugs x3 6-12
Ez x3 6-12, Hammer x2 6-12, Rev Curls x2 6-12


WED & SAT
Hams x3 6-12, Squats x4 6-12, Quads x3 6-12
Calves x3 6-15
Upper x3 6-15, Lower x3 6-15, Obl x3 6-15

SUN: OFF


Setup: PPL,PPL, OFF

Would this routine work as a efficient PPL & Low volume setup for OPTIMAL growth on moderate dosage cycle?
Can u please ad in some feedback. Should I adjust the volume for certain exercises or what else do u think?

Thank u so much friend

PS: I am also a old user from the ology. Milton has been a pain on that forum and pretty much banned me on there and killed all my rep I earned.
Have u seen where halfwit went off to btw? It's a little off topic, but he was a good guy :p

For your push day, I personally think front raises are a waste of time for the majority and don't see the need for 3 tricep movements but apart from that, it's fine.

Pull day I'd add some sort of vertical pulling into the mix (lat pulldowns, pullups, etc) and sacrifice one form of row (a wide, narrow, and neutral form with rotating grips is more than enough).
3 bicep movements may be excessive unless they're a weak point your trying to bring up in which I'd get rid of hammer curls and bring in db incline or cable variations instead.
Don't be afraid to go with 15 rep sets for back either; the trap family are a bunch of slow-twitch muscles and tend to respond to bit higher volume.

For legs I'd bump up the volume pretty dramatically, at least equal to your push/pull days though ideally more than that.
You really want to have a compound quad dominant move (squats, leg press, etc), either an isolation or single leg quad dominant move (leg extensions, split squats, etc), a hip hinge movement focused on the hamstrings or glutes (RDL, hip thrusts, etc) along with something extra to cover whatever isn't the main focus during the hip hinge movement (leg curls for hams, kickbacks/pull-throughs for glutes, etc) and something for calves to finish it off. That's a minimum of 5 movements for me.
Core training is whatever you want it to be depending on your weaknesses. I personally have folks do stuff like RKC planks, etc just to maintain strength since lack of development is rarely an issue for most (too much fat is).

If you've been following me for a while then you know how I feel about Ology - no valuable member belongs, or can now be found, there.
Halfwit is a member here and pops in now and again. I'm in contact with him on a regular basis and he's also been banned on Ology for no apparent reason - says a lot doesn't it :)
 

mrmichael

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For your push day, I personally think front raises are a waste of time for the majority and don't see the need for 3 tricep movements but apart from that, it's fine.

Pull day I'd add some sort of vertical pulling into the mix (lat pulldowns, pullups, etc) and sacrifice one form of row (a wide, narrow, and neutral form with rotating grips is more than enough).
3 bicep movements may be excessive unless they're a weak point your trying to bring up in which I'd get rid of hammer curls and bring in db incline or cable variations instead.
Don't be afraid to go with 15 rep sets for back either; the trap family are a bunch of slow-twitch muscles and tend to respond to bit higher volume.

For legs I'd bump up the volume pretty dramatically, at least equal to your push/pull days though ideally more than that.
You really want to have a compound quad dominant move (squats, leg press, etc), either an isolation or single leg quad dominant move (leg extensions, split squats, etc), a hip hinge movement focused on the hamstrings or glutes (RDL, hip thrusts, etc) along with something extra to cover whatever isn't the main focus during the hip hinge movement (leg curls for hams, kickbacks/pull-throughs for glutes, etc) and something for calves to finish it off. That's a minimum of 5 movements for me.
Core training is whatever you want it to be depending on your weaknesses. I personally have folks do stuff like RKC planks, etc just to maintain strength since lack of development is rarely an issue for most (too much fat is).

If you've been following me for a while then you know how I feel about Ology - no valuable member belongs, or can now be found, there.
Halfwit is a member here and pops in now and again. I'm in contact with him on a regular basis and he's also been banned on Ology for no apparent reason - says a lot doesn't it :)

Thank you. I have a few more questions based on your answer.
-In general do u think the volume I setup total for my Push & Pull day is Fine and it would NOT be considered over training? I primarily want to get it done within a hourish in the gym?

-How would u fix my tricep & Bicep movements and volume? My Arms are a weak point in general for me.

-U might have misunderstood my back routine. I do: Tbar, Rows....Then the last two are wide grip lats and close grip lats. Does that cover it?


-I'm more worried about the volume cause I tend to get carried away with drop sets and pump crazy in the gym and even eating outrageous amounts of calories to fuel it geared with AAS I could not still grow on a PPL split very well and put on mostly fat last time around...So I REALLY want that to be in check tbh. Would u consider over training in terms of volume or sets done for the day? I will adjust the tips u added and more too!

I did not know that about half. What is his username on here? U and him are the only 2 guys I ever looked up too on the ology and always appreciated the help.
 

MrRippedZilla

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Thank you. I have a few more questions based on your answer.
-In general do u think the volume I setup total for my Push & Pull day is Fine and it would NOT be considered over training? I primarily want to get it done within a hourish in the gym?

-How would u fix my tricep & Bicep movements and volume? My Arms are a weak point in general for me.

-U might have misunderstood my back routine. I do: Tbar, Rows....Then the last two are wide grip lats and close grip lats. Does that cover it?


-I'm more worried about the volume cause I tend to get carried away with drop sets and pump crazy in the gym and even eating outrageous amounts of calories to fuel it geared with AAS I could not still grow on a PPL split very well and put on mostly fat last time around...So I REALLY want that to be in check tbh. Would u consider over training in terms of volume or sets done for the day? I will adjust the tips u added and more too!

I did not know that about half. What is his username on here? U and him are the only 2 guys I ever looked up too on the ology and always appreciated the help.

1) I think your volume is fine. Whether you'll get it done in an hour or not depends on your rest periods and, honestly, isn't something I'd focus too much on. "Optimal" routines don't involve time limits, you rest as much as you need to perform as well as you can.

2) If you arms are a weak point and I was working with you I'd probably bump the frequency to 3x week, with 3 movements for bis (1 for max weight, 1 for max eccentric, one for max concentric) and 2 for tri's (overhead for the long head, whatever else for the other heads). Reps would be mixed with a focus on the lower side for tri's and mid-high for bi's.
Of course I'd also complete alter your PPL to keep everything else at maintenance while we bring up arms so...yea.

3) Your right, I did misunderstand your back routine. It sounds fine but I'd still add some vertical pulling in at least for one of the weekly pull sessions.

4) If your progressing, as in weight is going up, I can't see how you wouldn't grow on decent gear.
Volume is easy to control with deloads and back cycles. Deload = drop volume 10-30% every 6-10 weeks to let fatigue dissipate before going hard again. Backcycle = drop weight 15% before working your way, slowly, back up again (the time it takes for you to return to your PB weights, fatigue will be gone, gainz continue).
Those are 2 easy ways to control volume and it comes down to personal preference which one you go for. There are other ways but this isn't a programming course and I don't want to make things too complicated - if your interested in more info, read this.

Half's username is the same here, he can be found on the "members list" option under the "community" option tab at the top or somewhere in my friends list.
 

mrmichael

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1) I think your volume is fine. Whether you'll get it done in an hour or not depends on your rest periods and, honestly, isn't something I'd focus too much on. "Optimal" routines don't involve time limits, you rest as much as you need to perform as well as you can.

2) If you arms are a weak point and I was working with you I'd probably bump the frequency to 3x week, with 3 movements for bis (1 for max weight, 1 for max eccentric, one for max concentric) and 2 for tri's (overhead for the long head, whatever else for the other heads). Reps would be mixed with a focus on the lower side for tri's and mid-high for bi's.
Of course I'd also complete alter your PPL to keep everything else at maintenance while we bring up arms so...yea.

3) Your right, I did misunderstand your back routine. It sounds fine but I'd still add some vertical pulling in at least for one of the weekly pull sessions.

4) If your progressing, as in weight is going up, I can't see how you wouldn't grow on decent gear.
Volume is easy to control with deloads and back cycles. Deload = drop volume 10-30% every 6-10 weeks to let fatigue dissipate before going hard again. Backcycle = drop weight 15% before working your way, slowly, back up again (the time it takes for you to return to your PB weights, fatigue will be gone, gainz continue).
Those are 2 easy ways to control volume and it comes down to personal preference which one you go for. There are other ways but this isn't a programming course and I don't want to make things too complicated -

Half's username is the same here, he can be found on the "members list" option under the "community" option tab at the top or somewhere in my friends list.


I have a few more Q's on my mind. Little off topic though, I apologise. I can't PM till my post count is 25+ lol

Last time around I did very high volume ( for ex: x4 sets, with like 2-5 more drop sets alone for something like Flat), then I would do the rest of my Push routine the same way e3d and I did not grow from it even eating 4500+ cals. I had to eat cheat meals (junk food) and I ended up looking terrible by the end. Do u not think volume control to freq is what makes growth paired with AAS stacks and a good surplus?

I've been running tren e at 800mg (approaching end of week 3). I haven't felt much on it so far in terms of sides. Do u think I won't feel anything on it till weeks 5-6 even at that dosage? I ran 400 long time ago and I felt the sweats around 5-6 I recall.

In terms of Orals. I been on 3 weeks of 100mg Dbol ED. (Yes I have LOTS of liver support). The only side I feel bad is insane back pumps that make it so I can't even squat proper. I been taking 50 post workout and 50 before bed. Would u time the orals another way for optimal growth? (not looking for str)

How much do u charge for PT? I'm in the USA
 

Milo

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My 2 cents:

1. Tren isn't the best option out there in terms of gaining size (I assume you want to gain size considering you said you aren't looking for strength). Nandrolone, Test, Dbol would be a better option I think.

2. You're running Tren E, so I wouldn't expect anything miraculous out of it just yet. Remember it's Enanthate and takes a minute to spool up.

3. Volume is the word of the day when it comes to hypertrophy. But when you have long drawn-out workouts coupled with a shit ton of Tren, it's going to be hard to put on a lot of weight. You say you eat a lot and I believe that, but you REALLY need to eat some serious amounts of food with what you're doing. I wouldn't consider anything a "cheat meal". You should be eating everything in sight.

4. I want to write more but I've got some shit to do. Will return...
 

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Day 1 - Deadlift, bench assistance
off
Day 2 - Bench, squat assistance
off
Day 3 - Squat, posterior chain fukkery
off
Day 4 - curls for the girls

Diet - Miller High Life's and red meat

Miller High Life eh... Isn't that some sort of double-negative?
 

mrmichael

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My 2 cents:

1. Tren isn't the best option out there in terms of gaining size (I assume you want to gain size considering you said you aren't looking for strength). Nandrolone, Test, Dbol would be a better option I think.

2. You're running Tren E, so I wouldn't expect anything miraculous out of it just yet. Remember it's Enanthate and takes a minute to spool up.

3. Volume is the word of the day when it comes to hypertrophy. But when you have long drawn-out workouts coupled with a shit ton of Tren, it's going to be hard to put on a lot of weight. You say you eat a lot and I believe that, but you REALLY need to eat some serious amounts of food with what you're doing. I wouldn't consider anything a "cheat meal". You should be eating everything in sight.

4. I want to write more but I've got some shit to do. Will return...

Not really understanding anything ur saying. I've never ran deca.. I've always used tren for mass.

Was thinking of doing a 16 week 1g deca and maybe like low test (500mg) alongside some sort of oral. Something like tbol maybe. Oxys destroy my appt too bad, I've done it again and again. Dbol does well for me for some reason.

Why do u need to eat so much on tren? i don't see it being very special. I'm opting to be in the gym for a short amount of time with low volume high freq routine above. I can grow in the range of 4000-5000 calories between my set weight in the 185-200 range. Or atleast that was the macro split I was doing when I had high volume-drop sets twice PW to gain size.
 

ECKSRATED

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Gram of deca and 500 test? Careful with that brother might kill your cock. I've ran deca hundreds of times and found deca over 800 really isn't worth it IMO. I shouldn't say worth it but i run 600-800 deca with test around the same for the best results and least sides. That's just me.
 

mrmichael

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Gram of deca and 500 test? Careful with that brother might kill your cock. I've ran deca hundreds of times and found deca over 800 really isn't worth it IMO. I shouldn't say worth it but i run 600-800 deca with test around the same for the best results and least sides. That's just me.

im running 800 tren and 600 test and it's doing fine. I don't think the reverse combo effects every 1 the same way IMO, but I will defo keep it in consideration. I can't say much since I never ran deca before. I always get duped into running higher tren than the last lol.
 

Milo

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Not really understanding anything ur saying. I've never ran deca.. I've always used tren for mass.

Was thinking of doing a 16 week 1g deca and maybe like low test (500mg) alongside some sort of oral. Something like tbol maybe. Oxys destroy my appt too bad, I've done it again and again. Dbol does well for me for some reason.

Why do u need to eat so much on tren? i don't see it being very special. I'm opting to be in the gym for a short amount of time with low volume high freq routine above. I can grow in the range of 4000-5000 calories between my set weight in the 185-200 range. Or atleast that was the macro split I was doing when I had high volume-drop sets twice PW to gain size.

Let me re-word my statement. Both will put on mass. Comes down to a thicker rounder bloat mass vs a hard lean dry mass as I'm sure you know. For me personally, Tren made me sweat so god damn much that I could hardly stay hydrated and keep my weight up. I'd go to bed at 215 and wake up around 207. Throughout the day I felt like I was always in a workout huffing and puffing, sweating my ass off. It was hard to keep the weight up compared to Nandrolone where it held it all and the scale would go up on almost a daily basis.

As far as drop sets and volume go; my view has changed recently in reading some studies put out by Dr Mike Isratel in regards to volume in hypertrophy. It goes like this: Work in mesocycles which are typically 3 weeks long, steadily increasing the volume each week. At the third week mark you will then perform your overload sets (i.e dropsets etc). The fourth week is somewhat of a deload where you drop your volume back down and get ready to hit it harder the next week. The goal here is to work up to your MRV (Maximum Recoverable Volume) which as the name implies is the maximum amount of volume you can do and still recover for the next workout. After you hit your MRV, you'll over-reach by doing dropsets or something similar. The deload following this will aid your recovery (you've exceeded your MRV) then when you start a new mesocycle you will be doing more in the first week than you were doing in the first week of your last mesocycle.
Hope this makes sense. It's worked extremely well for me. I used to do drop sets all the damn time and I don't think it's very effective. They should be used smartly, not to just beat you into the ground.
 

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I have a few more Q's on my mind. Little off topic though, I apologise. I can't PM till my post count is 25+ lol

Last time around I did very high volume ( for ex: x4 sets, with like 2-5 more drop sets alone for something like Flat), then I would do the rest of my Push routine the same way e3d and I did not grow from it even eating 4500+ cals. I had to eat cheat meals (junk food) and I ended up looking terrible by the end. Do u not think volume control to freq is what makes growth paired with AAS stacks and a good surplus?

I've been running tren e at 800mg (approaching end of week 3). I haven't felt much on it so far in terms of sides. Do u think I won't feel anything on it till weeks 5-6 even at that dosage? I ran 400 long time ago and I felt the sweats around 5-6 I recall.

In terms of Orals. I been on 3 weeks of 100mg Dbol ED. (Yes I have LOTS of liver support). The only side I feel bad is insane back pumps that make it so I can't even squat proper. I been taking 50 post workout and 50 before bed. Would u time the orals another way for optimal growth? (not looking for str)

How much do u charge for PT? I'm in the USA

Volume control is important and, as I said in my previous post, there are many ways to go about it with no one way being "optimal". However, the point I really want to emphasize is that mechanical load ALWAYS beats both muscle damage & metabolic stress as the best stimulus for growth. Focus on increasing the load on the volume your using while adding in more volume GRADUALLY over time - not the other way round.

I am a believer in being able to grow on any amount of quality gear provided the dose, like the training, is gradually increased over time.
That being said, Milo makes a fair point about tren's ability to limit endurance and that certainly can make high volume training a struggle (the answer would be to adopt a low volume protocol while on it and not rely on stress/damage as the primary stimuli as I said before). Of course you also have to consider the fact that your gear may be bunk, which if it came from an Ology source like PSL is highly likely.

Once you can PM, I think its 10 or 25 posts, I'll let you know my rates for online coaching but be warned that I'm not cheap :)

Beyond that if you have other questions to ask that are beyond the scope of this thread, I encourage you to start your own and let the guys chime in rather than invade here.
 

mrmichael

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Volume control is important and, as I said in my previous post, there are many ways to go about it with no one way being "optimal". However, the point I really want to emphasize is that mechanical load ALWAYS beats both muscle damage & metabolic stress as the best stimulus for growth. Focus on increasing the load on the volume your using while adding in more volume GRADUALLY over time - not the other way round.

I am a believer in being able to grow on any amount of quality gear provided the dose, like the training, is gradually increased over time.
That being said, Milo makes a fair point about tren's ability to limit endurance and that certainly can make high volume training a struggle (the answer would be to adopt a low volume protocol while on it and not rely on stress/damage as the primary stimuli as I said before). Of course you also have to consider the fact that your gear may be bunk, which if it came from an Ology source like PSL is highly likely.

Once you can PM, I think its 10 or 25 posts, I'll let you know my rates for online coaching but be warned that I'm not cheap :)

Beyond that if you have other questions to ask that are beyond the scope of this thread, I encourage you to start your own and let the guys chime in rather than invade here.

Ok, I will make new threads and PM u when I can.

I didn't get a PSL source. I used Gentech (If u ever heard of it). I'm just wondering though, u didn't state if I'd feel that type of dosage before 5-6 weeks. My endurance is lacking TBH. I will work with lower volume, increasing weight on the routine we discussed. I'll pm u about the rates.
 
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This is great. I'm going to give it a shot here in the next week or so. I am extremely against the "once a week" hit for a muscle group, even when lifting natty. and its always such a pain to create a detailed layout without piling in a bunch of unnecessary numbers that don't make much of a difference in the end. It seems like a great layout for a routine
 

Bro Bundy

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Mon - chest, triceps, front/side delts
Tues - Back, biceps, side/rear delts
Wed - Legs, core
Thurs - chest, triceps, front/side delts
Fri - Back, biceps, front/side delts
Sat - legs/core
Sun
 

Bro Bundy

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thats my favorite split zilla wrote..Ive been doing it a while
 

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