21 day DNP run

[Sammy]

Hello guys, so after doing my due diligence on this chemical I've decided to take the plunge. I was inspired by a poster on another board named "Orangejuicer", maybe you guys know him..Anyways here's the plan:

Basically going to be running a PSMF style diet with DNP for 21 days. I was just going to do it and get it over with but I really wanted to make a thread somewhere for motivation and conversational purposes and the guys/girls on this board seem cool so yeah.

Cals: 800-1200 Basically all protein, some trace carbs/fat with a carb up on day 10.
Supps: Fish Oil, ALA, MultiVit, Vit C, Vit D, 1.5G water daily and maybe an EC stack but not 100% on that yet
DNP: Today is day 3 running 375mg crystal. Began feeling the sides today with increased heat and lethargy, I will continue this dose for 2 more days and assess sides/temp and possibly increase to 500mg ED from there
Training: I'm currently doing a 3x a week full body program which will be cut down to 2x a week with light cardio 2-3x a week cause I'm in the military and have too run sometimes.

Starting weight 220lb.. I'll post some before and after pics as the cycle gets deeper in...

I carb loaded today and will begin the full diet tomorrow, hopefully I can get some cool and knowledgeable people to follow along.

 

[Nieldsy19]

Tuned in. I just finished my own run. Interested to see your results on that much of a deficit. So many variables! In my opinion 500 is pretty hot and lethargic but definitely manageable. Anything over that is overkill, personally. Good luck and stay cool!

 

[donjuanelite]

With the PSMF style diet dehydration is an issue...

With DNP it is even moreso an issue. Wouldn't this be a very bad combo?

I am asking because I plan to run dnp, and am not 100% sure on what diet to use. Trying to get things in order asap before it gets too hot outside.

 

[PillarofBalance]

What diet you use doesn't matter.

Eating 800 calories per day is just stupid unless your goal is to be skinny fat.

Eating only protein is stupid too. Lethargy from dnp is bad enough. Then you are removing your energy sources too.

Doing anything that promotes dehydration is stupid as well.

Lots of stupid things combined is going to just be misery and for no reason.

All you have to do is take your dnp. Drink a lot of water and eat food in a slight deficit. Dnp does the rest.

 

[automatondan]

Im no expert in DNP, but I feel like your calories are way too low and you could actually shut down your metabolism because your body will go into self-preservation mode. It could work against your goals here. Also, you are new here, (welcome btw), but I have found it a good idea to listen to the advice that Pillar ^^^^ gives.... Also, if MrRippedZilla chimes in, it would be in your best interest to listen and take notes especially about DNP or diet.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Hello guys, so after doing my due diligence on this chemical I've decided to take the plunge. I was inspired by a poster on another board named "Orangejuicer", maybe you guys know him..Anyways here's the plan:

Basically going to be running a PSMF style diet with DNP for 21 days. I was just going to do it and get it over with but I really wanted to make a thread somewhere for motivation and conversational purposes and the guys/girls on this board seem cool so yeah.

Cals: 800-1200 Basically all protein, some trace carbs/fat with a carb up on day 10.
Supps: Fish Oil, ALA, MultiVit, Vit C, Vit D, 1.5G water daily and maybe an EC stack but not 100% on that yet
DNP: Today is day 3 running 375mg crystal. Began feeling the sides today with increased heat and lethargy, I will continue this dose for 2 more days and assess sides/temp and possibly increase to 500mg ED from there
Training: I'm currently doing a 3x a week full body program which will be cut down to 2x a week with light cardio 2-3x a week cause I'm in the military and have too run sometimes.

"Orangejuicer" has clearly been following Lyle McDonald's work since the vast majority of this protocol comes from his books (RFL in particular - good read for anyone wishing to educate themselves on PSMF diets).

The part in bold is why you shouldn't be doing a PSMF + DNP run
The diet isn't suited to your situation and I'm willing to bet that you'll end up ****ing up on the plan and/or gaining only temporary fat loss results. Adherence > rate of fat loss.

With the PSMF style diet dehydration is an issue...

With DNP it is even moreso an issue. Wouldn't this be a very bad combo?

I am asking because I plan to run dnp, and am not 100% sure on what diet to use. Trying to get things in order asap before it gets too hot outside.

Dehydration is an issue with all low carb plans and can be combated by bumping up water intake.

I've done the PSMF + DNP cycle a few ties and though rate of fat loss is as good as your going to get on a non-retarded diet, it's not for the weak minded and is only suited to specific situations.

What diet you use doesn't matter.

Eating 800 calories per day is just stupid unless your goal is to be skinny fat.

Eating only protein is stupid too. Lethargy from dnp is bad enough. Then you are removing your energy sources too.

Doing anything that promotes dehydration is stupid as well.

Lots of stupid things combined is going to just be misery and for no reason.

All you have to do is take your dnp. Drink a lot of water and eat food in a slight deficit. Dnp does the rest.

It doesn't make you skinny fat lol.
Muscle preservation is a non-issue on an intelligent PSMF (Lyle's RFL) and since the rate of fat loss is superior to any other type of non-retarded diet, it actually allows you to get back to maintenance quicker & back to building muscle quicker. In short, I think its superior to the "slow and steady" bullshit.

The lethargy is a real pain in the ass, but there are many ways around that (EC for beginners is one of the). Dehydration - bump up water intake as discussed above.

Im no expert in DNP, but I feel like your calories are way too low and you could actually shut down your metabolism because your body will go into self-preservation mode. It could work against your goals here. Also, you are new here, (welcome btw), but I have found it a good idea to listen to the advice that Pillar ^^^^ gives.... Also, if MrRippedZilla chimes in, it would be in your best interest to listen and take notes especially about DNP or diet.

Your metabolism will be down regulated (please don't use the phrase "shut down", its never shut down) REGARDLESS of the time frame taken to lose fat.
Basically, if you need to drop 10 founds of fat then your metabolism will adjust accordingly regardless of how long it takes you to drop that fat. That's one of the reasons why I go against the grain and routinely recommend dropping it quickly for a lot of people - prolonging the agony isn't helping your metabolism whatsoever.

 

[automatondan]

Ok, ya I didnt realize I used an "absolute" term there, sorry. So, it sounds like you are saying that because of adaptation our metabolism will down regulate no matter what we do, so it is more important that we can pick a plan that we will stick to 100%, correct? So that is why you would recommend a more drastic/accute restriction instead of a longer, more moderate plan? As I think about this some, I wonder if the ideal plan would incorporate both drastic restrictions over short periods, coupled with loading periods, and just kind of mix things up, keep your metabolism "guessing"....? Kind of like interval training/HIIT....? Or just changing lifting volume/intensity....?

(disclaimer: I am asking because I am learning, not because I am suggesting anything I say is correct)

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Ok, ya I didnt realize I used an "absolute" term there, sorry. So, it sounds like you are saying that because of adaptation our metabolism will down regulate no matter what we do, so it is more important that we can pick a plan that we will stick to 100%, correct? So that is why you would recommend a more drastic/accute restriction instead of a longer, more moderate plan? As I think about this some, I wonder if the ideal plan would incorporate both drastic restrictions over short periods, coupled with loading periods, and just kind of mix things up, keep your metabolism "guessing"....? Kind of like interval training/HIIT....? Or just changing lifting volume/intensity....?

Metabolic adaptation occurs regardless of the rate of fat loss if the overal fat lost is the same, yes.

Adherence > everything else, which is why in this specific situation (OP is military, needs to be pretty active, etc) I don't think a PSMF/DNP cycle is a good idea. On paper it looks awesome with maximum fat loss results but if you cannot adhere to it then it becomes meaningless.

The reasons I recommend going hard out of the blocks rather than slow and steady is pretty much to the contrary of what other "gurus" recommend.
Their reasoning is that you should start slow and only speed things up down the road when it becomes necessary.
My reasoning is that if metabolic downregulation is an inevitability, start as fast as you can and get the maximum results before it takes full effect.
Their reasoning is that the slow approach is better for muscle preservation.
My reasoning, backed up by dexa scans, is that muscle preservation is roughly the same between the two rates of loss.
My major point, that I've seen no one counteract to any reasonable degree, is that going slow for as long as you can and only speeding things up when you stall is the exact OPPOSITE of what's best for muscle preservation since the risk of muscle loss gets progressively higher as you get leaner. Its also a reactive approach, which I generally don't care for - you know somethings coming but you decide to wait for it to happen before acting.
My way, fast>slow, allows maximum fat loss during the least riskiest portion of dieting for muscle loss (the start) and slowing things down during the riskiest (the end). It's not waiting for bad shit to happen, it's knowing its going to happen and taking proactive steps to ensure those adaptations become irrelevant.

Keeping your body guessing as far as nutritional periodization goes is one thing (another topic for another time), but in this case the driving factors behind whether you go fast or slow should be a) adherence and b) current > targeted level of body composition.
A) has already been discussed but in terms of b), someone going from 10%>6% is going to be doing things differently than someone going from 30>18%. The fatter you are, the larger the caloric deficit should be and the faster you should be looking to lose it (again, conditional on the adherence thing).

 

[Sammy]

"Orangejuicer" has clearly been following Lyle McDonald's work since the vast majority of this protocol comes from his books (RFL in particular - good read for anyone wishing to educate themselves on PSMF diets).

The part in bold is why you shouldn't be doing a PSMF + DNP run
The diet isn't suited to your situation and I'm willing to bet that you'll end up ****ing up on the plan and/or gaining only temporary fat loss results. Adherence > rate of fat loss.

What about if I had a small amount of carbs prior to PT in the morning to basically help with any feelings of being mildly hypoglycemic? I have ran an RFL style diet before while serving with not too many problems, just never done it on DNP. Our morning PT isn't very strenuous at all which is why I figured I could do it like last time only with DNP in the mix this time. You seem very knowledgeable and would like to hear your take on it all.

 

[automatondan]

Thanks Zilla, that all actually makes pretty good sense to me. I appreciate you taking time to help us learn this stuff...
I understand that the time it might take for adaptation to set in varies based on % of caloric defect, current bodycomp, as well as energy expended/needed, (not to mention stimulants).... but have you observed an amount of time + caloric defect that seems to "work" for what you are suggesting? (like a recommended starting point...?)

 

[MrRippedZilla]

What about if I had a small amount of carbs prior to PT in the morning to basically help with any feelings of being mildly hypoglycemic? I have ran an RFL style diet before while serving with not too many problems, just never done it on DNP. Our morning PT isn't very strenuous at all which is why I figured I could do it like last time only with DNP in the mix this time. You seem very knowledgeable and would like to hear your take on it all.

What happened after your last RFL run?

 

[Sammy]

What happened after your last RFL run?

I went to a military school where diet/exercise was not of my choosing for 8 weeks, the RFL was basically just to cut a few lbs before I left to help with run times. Upon returning I'd be lying if I said I didn't rebound pretty heavily but I honestly think that more involved coming back to a normal tone of life and going overboard more than it was an RFL rebound.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

I went to a military school where diet/exercise was not of my choosing for 8 weeks, the RFL was basically just to cut a few lbs before I left to help with run times. Upon returning I'd be lying if I said I didn't rebound pretty heavily but I honestly think that more involved coming back to a normal tone of life and going overboard more than it was an RFL rebound.

Hmm...I think your underestimating the influence RFL had on your rebound

I'd recommend not doing PSMF/RFL and adding some carbs (even 20g or so) around activity levels - PT and training included.
I'd recommend adding the EC stack to help with fat mobilization & lethargy.
I'd recommend dumping the vit c, ala, and vi d (unless your deficient).
Finally, stick to 375mg. With such a severe diet-induced deficit plus the DNP at a decent dose your results will be more than satisfactory, no need to be stupid about any of this.

Thanks Zilla, that all actually makes pretty good sense to me. I appreciate you taking time to help us learn this stuff...
I understand that the time it might take for adaptation to set in varies based on % of caloric defect, current bodycomp, as well as energy expended/needed, (not to mention stimulants).... but have you observed an amount of time + caloric defect that seems to "work" for what you are suggesting? (like a recommended starting point...?)

PSMF/RFL is as severe a sensible deficit as you can have and is something most people can start with if they're above 15%bf. From there, gradually increasing cals, 5% every 2 weeks, as you get leaner.
Keep in mind that I've added zero context to this example because of the wide range of variables involved but it should give you an idea of what a diet looks like to begin with & what it becomes at the end. It'll need more detail in terms of what kind of cals to add, refeed & diet break structures, etc, etc.

 

[Sammy]

Hmm...I think your underestimating the influence RFL had on your rebound

I'd recommend not doing PSMF/RFL and adding some carbs (even 20g or so) around activity levels - PT and training included.
I'd recommend adding the EC stack to help with fat mobilization & lethargy.
I'd recommend dumping the vit c, ala, and vi d (unless your deficient).
Finally, stick to 375mg. With such a severe diet-induced deficit plus the DNP at a decent dose your results will be more than satisfactory, no need to be stupid about any of this.

Ay, I probably am underestimating. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Ok I will keep my cals a bit higher than planned, basically just adding some carbs, and stay at 375mg. You're right, for a first time cycle I shouldn't complicate things beyond need be.

Why do you recommend dropping the vitc and ala though? Are anti-oxidents not as beneficial as I originally thought?

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Ay, I probably am underestimating. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Ok I will keep my cals a bit higher than planned, basically just adding some carbs, and stay at 375mg. You're right, for a first time cycle I shouldn't complicate things beyond need be.

Why do you recommend dropping the vitc and ala though? Are anti-oxidents not as beneficial as I originally thought?

DNP itself actually reduces ROS, so no need for the extra antioxidants:
Prevention of Mitochondrial Oxidative Damage as a Therapeutic Strategy in Diabetes

The MOA is complicated, and I'm not sure if anyone cares, but its related to the fact that DNP increases the expression of uncoupled proteins, which regulates ROS production, and you end up with decreased inner mito membrane permeability, allowing "crowded" protons that want to go their own way (causing ROS) to leak through the normal pathway and thus decrease ROS.

Anti-oxidants may have a place immediately post-dnp cycle where some weak data shows an increase in ROS but considering your only doing a 3 week run, this is a non-issue.

 

[automatondan]

Cool stuff, thanks for sharing Zilla!

 

[Sammy]

DNP itself actually reduces ROS, so no need for the extra antioxidants:

The MOA is complicated, and I'm not sure if anyone cares, but its related to the fact that DNP increases the expression of uncoupled proteins, which regulates ROS production, and you end up with decreased inner mito membrane permeability, allowing "crowded" protons that want to go their own way (causing ROS) to leak through the normal pathway and thus decrease ROS.

Anti-oxidants may have a place immediately post-dnp cycle where some weak data shows an increase in ROS but considering your only doing a 3 week run, this is a non-issue.

Very interesting, thank you for that. One more question for you, I'd like to hear what you have to say on DNP and temperature? on 375mg and so far sides are noticeable but not bad at all, my temperature stayed in the mid 99's most of the day and even creeped to 100.7 at one point, but has also been in the low 98's at points, all while lounging in my room with windows open in shorts. I physically felt fine though, never actually felt physically feverish.

Do you have any thoughts on these temp fluctuations? Most of what I read says most people actually decrease their temp slightly while on. Should I be concerned and lower my dose? I've read temp should not exceed 99.2 so it's been something I've been thinking about today.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Temperature is a nice, objective, way to decide whether or not the DNP dose is right for you - unlike how you feel.
Therefore, if your temp is regularly 99.3+ then you need to be proactive and lower the dose rather than waiting for the sides get worse and...
High temp is the one consistent when it comes to death via dnp - it shouldn't be ignored.

With long term use, the temp difference becomes insignificant and no longer an issue but that involves time & dose titration - neither of which are relevant with a 3 week run that should be at a low fixed dose anyway.

 

[Sammy]

Day 1:

Weight: 220.4
Cals 1524

Raised my cals like RippedZilla said too and will be dropping my dose to 250mg ED. OVerally I feel very warm but not sweaty or anything. I get winded doing simple activities and my breathing is heavy. I have noticed a very slight yellow tint to my eyes and a yellow tint to my skin, especially noticeable on the bottoms of my feet. Should I be concerned? Everything I've read says DNP is not toxic to the liver and I had no problems like this before DNP.

Readings online tell me it's the dye properties but I would like to hear some words from you guys on it.

 

[AndyJB83]

Is the yellow in your vision or just in the whites of your eyes when you look in the mirror? That is a very critical distinction