Why low protein, high fat keto diets are ****ing stupid

[ToolSteel]

As an advanced athlete, which I consider you to be, I think your selling yourself short with 1g/lbm when dieting regardless of whether its keto or not.

The protein intake/AAS relationship is an interesting one because yes, it allows you to get away with less protein intake due to enhanced efficiency of use but it also allows you to build muscle in an energy balance that normally isn't conducive to building anything regardless of protein intake.
So unless your against getting bigger, weight classes or whatever, I don't see why you wouldn't add at least an extra 0.2g/lbm into the mix.

Let me add a little clarification; this is not on a cutting or bulking diet, just my everyday "staying where I'm at" diet. When I'm actually trying to cut, I prefer high protein Keto only for the fact that it's the easiest diet for me to stick to.
It didn't occur to me till now, however, that I don't really bump protein up over 1g when bulking. I just add mainly carbs.

Tool if you put on weight I will kill you. So will your water cuts lol

But yeah... What he said ^^^
I'm holding 255-260 pretty steady for now. If I don't consciously over eat I drop to the low 250's. Any higher and 242 is gonna be hell to break.

 

[ron1204]

Can someone explain exactly lean body mass opposed to total body mass. Is it just your total weight minus fat? For example if I'm 190 with a bf % of 10 what would be my lean body mass (if it can be figured out with that info).
Also zilla u recommend around 1.2g of protein per pound of lean body mass? Would going over to let's say 1.5 be any better ?

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Can someone explain exactly lean body mass opposed to total body mass. Is it just your total weight minus fat? For example if I'm 190 with a bf % of 10 what would be my lean body mass (if it can be figured out with that info).
Also zilla u recommend around 1.2g of protein per pound of lean body mass? Would going over to let's say 1.5 be any better ?

If you are 190lbs @ 10% BF it means you have 19lbs of fat and 171lbs of lean body mass.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Ok first of all, learn some reading comprehension.
This was never about whether keto works or not, any diet that induces a caloric deficit works. It was about the recent trend of LOW protein keto diets and why they are ****ing stupid. Like seriously, its the title of the thread.



I know for fact that you cannot post data to refute my "arguments" because I'm not making any "argument" - I'm telling you how the body works. So please go ahead and post this imaginary, non-existent data, that counteracts basic biochemistry that you clearly have no idea how to comprehend. Go on, post it.

Oh and don't give me the "its waste of time" bullshit. This is the science section, if your going to call me out on my facts you better have some ****ing evidence to support you.




Classic response from someone who has NO IDEA how to interpret data. And again, if you don't care what the data says, your in the wrong sub-forum.

I know that your WAY out of your league on this but I want to see how long its going to take you to realize that or are you going to just let your ego run wild and embarrass yourself? Let's find out

I lol'ed

10char

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Also zilla u recommend around 1.2g of protein per pound of lean body mass? Would going over to let's say 1.5 be any better ?

That was my recommendation for TS specifically, before he clarified that he was talking about his maintenance diet of course. TS is a PLer with, as far as I'm aware, no intention of getting super lean anytime soon - that plays a big part in all this.

In terms of whether more protein is better, it depends on context (yes, I know I say that a lot but its true).
An example that is not entirely relevant to you but is worth sharing because it is interesting was a recent study using "obese" beginners. They compared a group consuming 1.2g/kg of protein (the group averaged 96kg weight with 24.8%bf = 115.2g protein OR 0.73g/lb of LBM) and another consuming 2.4g/kg of protein (100.1kg weight, 23.6%bf = 240.24g protein OR 1.43g/lb of LBM) with both facing a 40% caloric deficit. The difference was one maintained muscle, the other gained muscle (about 2.5lbs) - that's pretty impressive faced with that deficit IMO.

I'm blabbering, sorry about that. Anyway, if your situation pertains to getting shredded and/or dieting with AAS then yes - more protein may be better

 

[ron1204]

Ok perfect explanation man. Thanks! With all this protein nonsense going around it's hard to make sense of it but your explanations are second to none and everything is easy to understand.

 

[ToolSteel]

TS is a PLer with, as far as I'm aware, no intention of getting super lean anytime soon

I was butthurt for about 0.2 seconds, then realized you couldn't be more correct.
:32 (18):

 

[ECKSRATED]

I was butthurt for about 0.2 seconds, then realized you couldn't be more correct.
:32 (18):

Damnit that was Sig material but u caught it first.

 

[ECKSRATED]

I like high protein super high fats and super higher carbs.

Seriously I love carbs. Can't imagine not eating them.

Interesting read but seems to be common sense in the bodybuilding world but like u said its a new trend that people will follow. I've seen a bunch of stupid shit on the internet lately about protein being bad and causes such and such problems. What problems? Some extra smelly farts? Yeah but your bicep got bigger didn't it? Lol.

 

[Rip]

Mass in what form? What is your body fat %

Reason I asked is because I rarely break 1g/# lbm. While I'm not necessarily trying to pack on mass, I have no problem maintaining it either. And strength has continued to rise.

 

[Rip]

Guys in the Olympia are eating around 500grams of protein.

 

[ToolSteel]

Mass in what form? What is your body fat %

Hell if I know. Between 15 and 20. The fur makes it hard to tell.

As far as protein intake goes I was referring to 1g/lb lean mass.

 

[Flyingdragon]

I eat 5 grams of protein per inch of body height....I have no scientific proof to my process, but I would classify it as "alternative facts"....

 

[DieYoungStrong]

I SWALLOW 5 grams of SEMEN per inch of DICK LENGTH....I have no scientific proof to my process, but I would classify it as "alternative facts"....

Fixed that for you...homo

 

[SuperBane]

I've been plenty successful with palumbos higher protein version of keto

 

[mrmichael]

I once got into a "debate" with an individual on another board who was convinced that low protein keto diets are just fine at preventing muscle loss due to the fat intake. I originally put this down as 1 narrow minded idiot but then saw the same mindset occur again & again in real life and across the boards (thankfully, never here). I believe this has a lot to do with the anti-protein trend that I've mentioned before.

So I've decided to dive into some basic biochemistry to explain WHY fat intake alone does NOTHING to prevent muscle loss when dieting. You won't see any references here because this is stuff I learnt at college and can be found in any decent biochemistry textbook (I recommend the one by Berg, Tymoczko & Stryer) so without any further delay let's dive in...


The Krebs cycle, Acetyl groups & Oxaloacetate

In order to burn carbs for energy, you first need to have the acetyl group enter the Krebs cycle (also known as the Citric acid/TCA cycle), which is the main cycle used by your body to produce ATP (your body's main energy source).
Now, in order to get that acetyl group into the cycle you MUST have some Oxaloacetate (OAA) lying around so the two can hook up and form citrate.


Where do you find this OAA stuff?

Well, this is called a "cycle" for a reason. Usually things just go round and round, being re-metabolized (the acetyl group is removed from the OAA) and there is no need for any "new" OAA.
However, OAA has other stuff to do outside of the cycle - one of which is to help produce new amino acids such as Aspartate. In fact, the Krebs cycle has a lot of intermediate steps between the OAA-Citrate hook up that involve a bunch of stuff leaving to make other amino acids (alpha ketoglutarate can leave the Krebs cycle to make glutamate, etc) but I won't go deep into this for fear of losing you folks.
The net result is, no matter who leaves during the intermediary steps, you end up with less OAA and you NEED to find some fresh from elsewhere.


What happens on a normal diet

With plenty of carbs available, OAA comes from Pyruvate (which comes from glucose). Pyruvate is mostly used to generate acetyl groups but some will also generate OAA so those two can hook up and enter the Krebs cycle.
The key point here is that carbs are the main provider of OAA under normal conditions. Fat can be broken down into the acetyl groups via beta-oxidation BUT these acetyl groups NEED OAA in order to enter the Krebs cycle and carbs are doing the supplying.
In fact, you could say that the fat is entering the Krebs cycle and is "burning" while OAA is the "flame" that allows it to enter the cycle. This is where the “fat burns in the flame of carbs” saying comes from; it means that acetyl groups derived from fat can only enter the Krebs cycle to be metabolized for energy if sufficient OAA can be derived from carbs.
Remember, fats can generate acetyl groups but not OAA.


So where does protein fit into this little energy circle?

Just as OAA can produce amino acids, amino acids can enter the Krebs cycle and produce OAA (two-way street) by the same process just reversed. This means the "fat burns in the flame of carbs" saying isn't quite accurate - it's more like "fat burns in the flame of OAA" because both carbs & protein can provide the OAA.


What happens on a traditional keto diet (low carb, decent protein & fat)?

Before going deep into detail here I want to add that OAA doesn’t just leave the Krebs cycle to make amino acids, it also leaves the cycle to make glucose via gluconeogenesis (making glucose, your main energy source, from non-carb sources). Keep that in mind.

So, we don't have enough carbs to supply OAA.
OAA itself is being depleted since some of it is leaving to produce new glucose.
Protein is going to be driven to enter the Krebs cycle but we still have that OAA that is being made leaving for the process of gluconeogenesis so OAA depletion seems inevitable.

Now, what is also happening in the liver (home of gluconeogenesis) is that fatty acids are being taken up, entering the mitochondrion, getting beta-oxidized to acetyl groups and with the end result being a massive oversupply of said acetyl groups.
When you combine this massive oversupply of acetyl groups with the massive under supply/depletion of OAA, you have a recipe for mass accumulation of acetyl groups that CANNOT enter the Krebs cycle because the cycle is operating less effectively and there are too many acetyl groups.
This is the event that causes ketogenesis: oversupply of acetyl groups to a depleted OAA pool where the acetyl groups cannot enter the Krebs cycle. Acetyl groups have nothing else to do except condense with one another to make ketones
Ketones are an energy source so they reduce the burden on the Krebs cycle, which means less depletion of OAA. This works because we still have SOMETHING to make OAA with, namely protein.


So if both carbs & protein can make OAA, and fat can only make the acetyl groups, what happens when you rely on a high fat/low carb/low protein style keto diet?

You lose muscle. It's as simple as that.
You NEED to get that OAA and if isn't coming from diet then it's coming from somewhere within the body. Hmm...I wonder where your body can find a decent supply of amino acids? Oh yea...your gainz. Those muscle gainz are going bye bye. Loss of lean mass is going to be triggered in large part by depletion of OAA, and only carbohydrate/protein together can supply OAA (both of which your stupidly not supplying).


Summary
There you go. A biochemistry lesson, showing what your body does with these energy sources, to justify why low protein keto diets (low protein diets in general actually) are ****ing stupid and there is no justification for it if your goal is to maximize body recomp.

I was in on the thread u are talking about lol. I told him that he was a fool too, made no sense at all. When u talk about protein intake for bulking and cutting. Say u were 200 lbs and wanted to gain. U would eat around 200g per day right? Would those protein g's count from ANY source? Even if say 20g came from pasta, another from brown rice.. Incomplete sources are factored in correct? Or would It need to be 200g of meat/eggs/nuts ect.. only

 

[knightmare999]

I was in on the thread u are talking about lol. I told him that he was a fool too, made no sense at all. When u talk about protein intake for bulking and cutting. Say u were 200 lbs and wanted to gain. U would eat around 200g per day right? Would those protein g's count from ANY source? Even if say 20g came from pasta, another from brown rice.. Incomplete sources are factored in correct? Or would It need to be 200g of meat/eggs/nuts ect.. only

You factor in incomplete protein sources, and you can combine incomplete sources to complement one another.
Throwing some beans in your rice, for example, will provide a more complete profile of amino acids.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

I was in on the thread u are talking about lol. I told him that he was a fool too, made no sense at all. When u talk about protein intake for bulking and cutting. Say u were 200 lbs and wanted to gain. U would eat around 200g per day right? Would those protein g's count from ANY source? Even if say 20g came from pasta, another from brown rice.. Incomplete sources are factored in correct? Or would It need to be 200g of meat/eggs/nuts ect.. only

That thread was fun. It's a shame that they follow the usual pattern though.
I say something, a clueless whoever calls me out, I respond, they either a) realize they're out their depth and run away or b) resort to ad hominem attacks and other irrelevant statements in a desperate attempt to save face. Interestingly, I've yet to find a single person who came out better off after such "debates"....their might be a lesson there

1g/lb protein is a nice place to be for folks bulking on gear. And as knightmare said, all sources should be factored into your calculations.

 

[Beezy]

I tried this diet to slim down for a cruise. Muscle went as fast as fat.
A high protein/fat and low carb diet gave me better results.

 

[ToolSteel]

I tried this diet to slim down for a cruise. Muscle went as fast as fat.
A high protein/fat and low carb diet gave me better results.

You tried a high protein/fat low carb diet that made you lose muscle. But then used a a high protein/fat low carb diet with better results.

Wut