Why low protein, high fat keto diets are ****ing stupid

Beezy

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I tried the "keto" diet that is high fat and low (protein/carbs) which made me lose muscle.
The high protein/fat and low (carbs) was better for only losing fat.
However after a month the muscle seemed to start coming off too.
 

ToolSteel

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The problem likely wasn't the diet, it was your deficit.
 

Beezy

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That's possible, Tool.
I didn't do a whole lot of calculations. Actually, until I joined up here today and started reading all these posts, I didn't realize I should be. This forum is pretty eye-opening. I've been lifting about 18 months and have zero friends who lift, so I thank you guys for all this info.
 

ToolSteel

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What if I told you that a 60% deficit vs 25% deficit, with the same end goal, results in similar recomp numbers?

I'm such a tease ;)
I'd say prove it.
If it was a set in stone ratio then everyone would eat barely enough to survive on a cut to get it done faster.
 

DocDePanda187123

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I'd say prove it.
If it was a set in stone ratio then everyone would eat barely enough to survive on a cut to get it done faster.

Its basically like 2x12 = 24 but so is 4x6

larger deficit the higher the rate of muscle loss but the less time spent dieting. Lower deficit means lower muscle loss per week but you also spend longer time dieting so the end result is basically similar.
 

MrRippedZilla

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I'd say prove it.
If it was a set in stone ratio then everyone would eat barely enough to survive on a cut to get it done faster.

Your assuming that everyone would be able to handle such a severe deficit. This assumption is false.

This is one of those areas where, with regards to our community, I consider myself to be WAY ahead of the data.
Building on some of the work that Lyle McDonald showed (get a copy of his RFL book, excellent read) I've been able to experiment with this stuff both on myself and clients, with dexa scans to see differences, and have witnessed practically zero difference in body comp between small vs large deficits with the same end goal.
Of course this is anecdotal and I don't expect anyone to simply take my word for it - this is the science section after all.

The reason for the lack of conclusive data is due to the fact that severe deficits are difficult to adhere to and, as I've said many times, adherence > everything. You would need to instigate a high level of control on the variables (all food provided by the lab, subjects are permanently indoors for monitoring, etc) for the long term with members of our community (bodybuilders, etc). This is going to be incredibly expensive and frankly not an area of real interest for those who provide funding.
 

ToolSteel

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Didn't you also say in another thread that muscle wasting while cutting is related to inadequate protein intake? Or was that doc?
 

ToolSteel

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Probably both of us in several places because its true.
Right. So if two people have the same macro split, but one is at 60% deficit and one at 25%, the 60% will be eating far less protein.

So so how can you claim to have it both ways?
 

MrRippedZilla

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Right. So if two people have the same macro split, but one is at 60% deficit and one at 25%, the 60% will be eating far less protein.
So so how can you claim to have it both ways?

Re-read my posts. I never at any point said that the macro split stays the same because it doesn't. In fact, trying to maintain the same ratio makes zero sense anyway - why would you sacrifice all 3 macros equally when the effect on muscle preservation isn't equal? Zero sense.

Carbs/fats are sacrificed to increase the size of the deficit while protein stays the same or creeps higher depending on the circumstances.
 

ToolSteel

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Re-read my posts. I never at any point said that the macro split stays the same because it doesn't. In fact, trying to maintain the same ratio makes zero sense anyway - why would you sacrifice all 3 macros equally when the effect on muscle preservation isn't equal? Zero sense.

Carbs/fats are sacrificed to increase the size of the deficit while protein stays the same or creeps higher depending on the circumstances.
I was hoping you'd say that.

My point is that regardless of the Marco split a large enough deficit will drop protein too low, causing an increased rate of muscle loss disproportionate to one at a smaller deficit.

So all deficits do not have equal results with the same end goal.
 

MrRippedZilla

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I was hoping you'd say that.
My point is that regardless of the Marco split a large enough deficit will drop protein too low, causing an increased rate of muscle loss disproportionate to one at a smaller deficit.
So all deficits do not have equal results with the same end goal.

Dude, your better than this. I never said ALL deficits have equal results with the same end goal either. Strawman, stay away from it :)

There is a reason why I chose the 60% vs 25% numbers. The former is possible with a PSMF approach (maintaining adequate protein intake) and the latter is a typical deficit size for most. I also happened to use those same numbers on a few experiments and dexa verified what I knew all along.

One day I will write up an article going into more detail on this topic since the idea that "slow and steady" is superior is, frankly, bullshit. But for now, I have some some MFR data to look into and the posts in this thread have teetered on becoming irrelevant to the OT for a while now. By all means, PM me if you want to learn more.
 

ToolSteel

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Dude, your better than this. I never said ALL deficits have equal results with the same end goal either. Strawman, stay away from it :)

There is a reason why I chose the 60% vs 25% numbers. The former is possible with a PSMF approach (maintaining adequate protein intake) and the latter is a typical deficit size for most. I also happened to use those same numbers on a few experiments and dexa verified what I knew all along.

One day I will write up an article going into more detail on this topic since the idea that "slow and steady" is superior is, frankly, bullshit. But for now, I have some some MFR data to look into and the posts in this thread have teetered on becoming irrelevant to the OT for a while now. By all means, PM me if you want to learn more.
You're right, I do know better than that. But I like poking you to get more thorough explanations for future readers.

We ain't all wizards.
 

PFM

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For the mos part I agree, but for the most part.

I have had great cutting results taking a keto meal or two per day while on a 6-8 meal feeding regimen.

Once a guy reaches the 10's he can use the mirror day to day to adjust.

I am currently taking a sardine and peanuts meal mid afternoon. The days I eat some carbs with that meal bogs me down.

A diet of all protein and fats is dumb, but using all protein and fat meals in conjunction with 3 macro meals can and does have its place.
 

Chillinlow

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Never heard of a keto diet that is low protein

keto diet is high fat moderate protein and no carbs

to be on a legit keto diet and be in ketosis takes a very determined person most people fail at this. They never count their macros and do proper calculations and always trying to cheat the system

therws a million bullshit articles saying you need carbs for your lean muscle bull shit

i have done the keto life style and have helped consult and have numerous friends who have businesses that are specifically built around the keto diet

you can say all your fancy information you want but till you actually try it and get the calculations right your fancy words is you pissing in the wind

the best example I use explaining the keto diet when people are confused about it and think you need "carbs" is I simply tell them look at a carnivore ..... look at a lion tiger etc
theu eat red meat protein no carbs they are made up of lean muscle , ask a hunter how much fat and muscle is on a mountain lion, there is basically no fat all muscle and o yeah they didn't need carbs to get there

just saying brotha been there done that

and apologize for my 3rd grade grammar in advance before I catch shit
 
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DocDePanda187123

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Never heard of a keto diet that is low protein

keto diet is high fat moderate protein and no carbs

to be on a legit keto diet and be in ketosis takes a very determined person most people fail at this. They never count their macros and do proper calculations and always trying to cheat the system

therws a million bullshit articles saying you need carbs for your lean muscle bull shit

i have done the keto life style and have helped consult and have numerous friends who have businesses that are specifically built around the keto diet

you can say all your fancy information you want but till you actually try it and get the calculations right your fancy words is you pissing in the wind

the best example I use explaining the keto diet when people are confused about it and think you need "carbs" is I simply tell them look at a carnivore ..... look at a lion tiger etc
theu eat red meat protein no carbs they are made up of lean muscle , ask a hunter how much fat and muscle is on a mountain lion, there is basically no fat all muscle and o yeah they didn't need carbs to get there

just saying brotha been there done that

and apologize for my 3rd grade grammar in advance before I catch shit

So when we all turn into mountain lions your argument might have some relavence, until then we'll just ignore it.

If if you've never heard of a low protein keto diet then I'm guessing it's you who's pissing in the wind.
 

ECKSRATED

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What's lean muscle? Can someone please explain that to me.
 

Seeker

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What's lean muscle? Can someone please explain that to me.

Lol you trying to be sarcastic? You can also refer to it as lean body mass. Which is your body weight minus your fat mass. Body weight including your muscles, bones, organs, even hair i think. You and Doc.would know all about the extra hair weight
 
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ECKSRATED

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Lol you trying to be sarcastic? You can also refer to it as lean body mass. Which is your body weight minus your fat mass. Body weight including your muscles, bones, organs, even hair i think. You and Doc.would know all about the extra hair weight

Lol I was being sarcastic. I HATE hearing someone say that. Lol. There's one type of muscle. That's it. Now lean body weight/mass is a different thing. And yes my lean body mass is much higher than normal because of my fur.
 

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