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Hey everyone,

Newbie here. A bit frustrated too so turning to you experts, experienced folks.


I have 2 simple question, yes the answers are available but I still do not understand them. Sorry for being extremely dumb about this.
1. Can someone do just 1 cycle of Test (cyp or E) for 12-14 weeks, with proper PCT starting week 1 and probably add enough ancillaries, blood work up prior, mid and later and have his HTPA axis not affected and get his test levels back to normal?
2. How much can you keep the gains?

I have read the stickys. I have read the researches, Evidence based, RCTs etc. Amazingly with a lot of flaws even though published in high impact factor journals. Misleading =(
I come from medical background (work in sports medicine - but gives you NO benefit), even after studying in depth from micro to macro level and even if you read a lot around, you realize your understanding is so little to the amount of information that is unknown. Scary. This science is so different and unique and has too many open gaps and unanswered questions. At the same time, every one is using this from 18 years old to 50 year old. I have seen the little side effects to major death by cardiac myopathies. It has left me confused.
 

Megatron28

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1. Yes your HPTA can make a full and complete recovery after a cycle. But there is never a guarantee that it will. You take a risk with every cycle that you run. Nobody can quantify that risk for you though. Every person is different and there aren't good studies out there to get an average.

2. If you are below your genetic peak you can keep all of your muscle gains after a cycle -- not counting the extra Glycogen that supraphysiological testosterone levels allow you to store. If you have a good diet, continue to train and sleep well the gains can be kept.

If the cycle takes you above your genetic peak, the gains will be lost when you come off cycle.
 
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1. Yes your HPTA can make a full and complete recovery after a cycle. But there is never a guarantee that it will. You take a risk with every cycle that you run. Nobody can quantify that risk for you though. Every person is different and there aren't good studies out there to get an average.

2. If you are below your genetic peak you can keep all of your muscle gains after a cycle -- not counting the extra Glycogen that supraphysiological testosterone levels allow you to store. If you have a good diet, continue to train and sleep well the gains can be kept.

If the cycle takes you above your genetic peak, the gains will be lost when you come off cycle.

Thanks megatron28, great reply.
Could you kindly go in detail about genetic peak.

Being below my genetic peak would mean, I still have not tapped into my full potential with gym and workouts?
I am not sure I understood that.

To be honest, that is my delimma. There are no studies which quantify my question. How much is the risk? And how can we better control it? Controlling side effects its somehting else, controlling how 'your' Axis responds to the dosages is a whole different thing.

I want to run first cycle with test but not so sure if i have reached my peak. Very scared at the moment. I dont deal well with hormonal changes lol
 
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PillarofBalance

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The answers to the questions you're asking are very individual. So many things can affect your ability to recover that its basically a crapshoot.

Here is a bit of reality for you though...

Nobody actually only does one cycle.
 

PFM

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I have 'come off' 10+ times. PCT, no PCT, God's PCT, etc. My best recovery to date is a propionate taper: no 'PCT'.

My natty has always returned to the same range of 342-358.

Interesting enough the 358 was no PCT and over 10 years older than the test levels of 342 in my early 40's.

Slice, dice, chop, overthink, stress and keep a spreadsheet or just train and eat like you have a set and maybe run some gear.
 
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Many of us here understood what we got ourselves into. We also knew the future we might be having to live with in terms of having to be on trt for the rest of our lives. Or not, like POB said. It's all very individual. Not saying being on trt is a terrible thing, but it is a life long commitment that comes with its ups and downs. From what I'm seeing these days most younger people taking AAS nowadays have no idea what their future has in store for them. They're not prepared. There will be a large % of people out there walking around with low test levels and will never know it. Are you prepared to possibly, not saying it will happen to you, but if in fact it does, are you prepared for such a life? You need to ask yourself this very important question.
 

Megatron28

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Thanks megatron28, great reply.
Could you kindly go in detail about genetic peak.

Being below my genetic peak would mean, I still have not tapped into my full potential with gym and workouts?
I am not sure I understood that.

To be honest, that is my delimma. There are no studies which quantify my question. How much is the risk? And how can we better control it? Controlling side effects its somehting else, controlling how 'your' Axis responds to the dosages is a whole different thing.

I want to run first cycle with test but not so sure if i have reached my peak. Very scared at the moment. I dont deal well with hormonal changes lol

There is a maximum amount of muscle mass that your genetics will support. Your genetics determine your maximum testosterone, GH, etc levels. Those all dictate how much muscle you can carry. If you want to exceed that genetic peak, you have to change the equation. That means taking steroids. For example, the Rock cannot have as much muscle as he does naturally. It just isn't physically possible. He takes steroids. If he stopped taking steroids he would "lose his gains".

It isn't about controlling how your HPTA "responds" to steroids. We all know with 100% certainty how it responds. It shuts down. Your pituitary stops sending LH and FSH to your testicles and so on. The question is how do your get your HPTA to turn back on.

There are things you can do to improve your chances of full recovery. Some are :

Wait until your endocrine system is done developing (usually around age 25)

Run PCT

Get blood work pre, mid and post-cycle.

Use hCG while on cycle to minimize leydig cell atrophy.

Don't run too long of a cycle.

Avoid 19-nor steroids (e.g. Nandrolone)

Don't run oral-only cycles (males).


But remember the more cycles you run the greater the chance that you will be in TRT. And as said in another post, most guys don't run just one cycle.
 
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Thank you everyone for your input. Great forum! Seems like a place Il learn.

Agreeing with all of you. I understood what you are saying. Will keep in mind.

Just out of curiosity..
Anyone knows of a risk indicator, scale, SCORE system based on risk factors? Any studies out?

Try to be patient, I am sure you all are sick of newbies like me asking the same question.
I am 30 year old and below is what I could plan the best.

Pre cycle:
1. Currently at 80 kg ( came down from 105kgs in 7 months), 5.9", I have 2 months ahead to lose about 8- 9 kgs to complete the weight loss till I am 70 - 71 then start. So i am not close to being muscular at the moment. I am just average fit. Usually focus more on diet than gym but regular atleast 3 to 4 times a week. Diet is in check.
2. Labs Pre cycle - mid and post cycle: TT, Senstive E2, fT, Cholesterol, LFTs, RFTs, FSH, LH
3. Home monitoring of BP and Glucose levels.

Week 1 to Week 10 - 400 mg Testosterone Enanthate per week (twice a week, 200mg each time) + AI (Anastrazole 0.25 TID) + BHCG (EOD) + Taurine BID + Tamoxifen

Week 13 - Taper Week 1 200mg Testosterone Enanthate per week (twice a week, 100mg each) + AI (Anastrazole 0.25 TID) + BHCG (EOD) + Taurine BID + Tamoxifen

Week 14 - Taper Week 2 - 100mg Testosterone Enanthate per week (twice a week, 50mg each) + AI (Anastrazole 0.25 TID) + BHCG (EOD) + Taurine BID + Tamoxifen


Questions:
1. Do you HAVE to be below 13% to 15% BF? Can one start a cycle at let us say 16 or 18 %? Does it not aid in further fat reduction.
2. Do you HAVE to be at your peak and only do cycling when you have not progressed? I am certainly not at my peak as yet.
3. Do I need a coach for my workouts to be intense?
4. How do I plan my calories, ratios when i am on cycle?
5. Does eating estrogen limiting foods help keep E levels low despite being of meds for extra precaution? Similarily claimed foods with stimulate your axis, cortisol? any studies?
6. Do I risk the same side effects if I use 300 or 500 of Test?
7. I am actually serious about doing just one or max 2 cycles and stop. Most guys tell me, if you want to use gear, either use it all your life or dont use it at all if you want 1 or 2 cycles.

In all honesty, I do not think i am ready so turning to you guys. I am preparing for my big day that is why in a hurry (shoot me ha !)
Thanks a lot everyone.
 
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Why are you tapering Test?

Don't do that.

Why are you running Tamoxifen on cycle?

Just run it if you start getting gyno symptoms and with PCT.

1. You don't have to be below any level of body fat to see benefits, but higher fat percentage can mean more sides.

2. You would do best to cycle after you've reached or neared genetic potential.

3. You don't need a coach for your workouts to be intense, but I would recommend a coach if you lack the knowledge and/or discipline to achieve this on your own.

4. Plan your calories based on your goals: deficit to lose weight, excess to gain.

5. No comment on number 5, other than it's probably negligible considering the volume of test you're going to be taking in per week.

6. Conversion of test to dht and estrogen works at a general percentage in ratio to test; the more test, the more estrogen and dht. The more estrogen, the more potential for sides.

7. Is 7 a question? If you're not near your potential, you can likely maintain most of your gains and maybe you'll be happy there. Or, you could enjoy the general elevated sense of well-being and overall "alpha-ness" that you get 24/7 on cycle, or the excellent pump, boost in sex drive, strength gains, etc. and decide that you want to run another. If you exceed your potential, as mentioned in this (maybe another?) thread using the Rock as an example, how would you feel dropping 5, 10, 20, 50 lbs of muscle because your body can't naturally sustain? Worst case, you kill your ability to produce test naturally and you're stuck on TRT just for playing once.

Nobody is going to make you do anything either way, and it's no one else's business if you want to do 1 or 100 cycles. No explanation necessary.
 
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Why are you tapering Test?

Don't do that.

Why are you running Tamoxifen on cycle?

Just run it if you start getting gyno symptoms and with PCT.

1. You don't have to be below any level of body fat to see benefits, but higher fat percentage can mean more sides.

2. You would do best to cycle after you've reached or neared genetic potential.

3. You don't need a coach for your workouts to be intense, but I would recommend a coach if you lack the knowledge and/or discipline to achieve this on your own.

4. Plan your calories based on your goals: deficit to lose weight, excess to gain.

5. No comment on number 5, other than it's probably negligible considering the volume of test you're going to be taking in per week.

6. Conversion of test to dht and estrogen works at a general percentage in ratio to test; the more test, the more estrogen and dht. The more estrogen, the more potential for sides.

7. Is 7 a question? If you're not near your potential, you can likely maintain most of your gains and maybe you'll be happy there. Or, you could enjoy the general elevated sense of well-being and overall "alpha-ness" that you get 24/7 on cycle, or the excellent pump, boost in sex drive, strength gains, etc. and decide that you want to run another. If you exceed your potential, as mentioned in this (maybe another?) thread using the Rock as an example, how would you feel dropping 5, 10, 20, 50 lbs of muscle because your body can't naturally sustain? Worst case, you kill your ability to produce test naturally and you're stuck on TRT just for playing once.

Nobody is going to make you do anything either way, and it's no one else's business if you want to do 1 or 100 cycles. No explanation necessary.

Thankyou for the response and simplifying for me. Appreciated!
Understood what you are saying.

I am still a bit unclear about no.7 even though you have nicely broken it down.
To what I understand: For someone, who just needs a bit of pump and as your described, elevated sense of well being etc - Its an advantage to 'not' be at your peak potential when you do your first cycle? Am i getting this right?

I think, I will be more than happy to stop right there.

now you say, IF i run another cycle and IF i exceed my potential THEN, that is when the rock example is applicable. My body has a temporary bulk which would come off because my natural test cannot support it.

Also, dont you think tapering test would be better than a sudden hault?
I am also prone to gyno, my fat deposits fast there. Is at least an OD dose better?
Just out of curiosity.

Thanks a tonne man!
 
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1. Yes your HPTA can make a full and complete recovery after a cycle. But there is never a guarantee that it will. You take a risk with every cycle that you run. Nobody can quantify that risk for you though. Every person is different and there aren't good studies out there to get an average.

2. If you are below your genetic peak you can keep all of your muscle gains after a cycle -- not counting the extra Glycogen that supraphysiological testosterone levels allow you to store. If you have a good diet, continue to train and sleep well the gains can be kept.

If the cycle takes you above your genetic peak, the gains will be lost when you come off cycle.

Thankyou for the reply.
That is what I meant - as described at no. 2

Still confused thought - what do you mean when you say 'if cycle takes you above your genetic peak' --> for that to happen, I would be at genetic peak when i start my first cycle.

So - what i conclude, someone who does not have BIGGER goals and wants a bit of pump, 1 cycle is efficient and its an advantage to not be at your utmost genetic peak? (Dont mean the other side of the spectrum either)

Thanks again guys - appreciate your help
 
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When you're shutdown, you're shutdown. Tapering those last couple of weeks won't help with anything other than maybe make you go to hard on your AI (you don't want your e2 too low either).

The good feelings and pump will be just as good whether you're at your potential or not.
The amount of musculature you keep after PCT will depend on how well your body recovers and how far beyond your body's naturally sustainable musculature you are.

Sorry for any confusion.
 
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More Questions..
I feel this is a good place with experienced and educated folks.

When ever your time allows.
I know the answers are subjective and based on a lot of things. But lets just say those are kept aside, out of your experience what do you think for:

1. Have you all ever seen cases with tendon ruptures, stroke etc with non chronic users?
2. Depression and aggression? Is this an immediate symptom? or for those who are prone for mood changes?
3. What exactly demarcates or differentiates 'use' from 'abuse' according to you guys?
4. Just asking, any correlation with IQ and steroid use. I have not come across anything like that.
5. How many years/How long would it take for someone to reach the same level of muscle mass compared to someone who achieves higher musculature on first cycle?
6. In your view, would side effects have a greater impact on non athletes compared to athletes?

Thanks.
Appreciate all your replies.
 

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