Deca vs. NPP

[snake]

Jin and I were previously discussing long and short esters and how they play into a cycle. The scenario is for someone to run a cycle of testosterone for a length of 16 weeks with the option of starting with either NPP or Deca for the first 8 weeks.

Jin felt the Deca took too long to hit and that NPP is a better choice. I felt it was basically a wash since the Deca was paying off on the back end. The internet is going to tell you that Deca needs to be 16 weeks or longer but can we rethink this? Let me say, neither Jin nor I think an 8 week Deca/test is good idea. Pay mind to the total cycle length of 16 weeks.

So here’s my train of thought:

Cycle starts Jan 1
Both Nandrolone are last pinned on Feb 26

NPP half life of 5 days should peak out in 25 days on Jan 25 and be gone 25 days after last pin. So the NPP is clear by March 23.

Deca half life of 12 days should peak out in 60 days on Feb 26 and be gone in 60 days after the last pin. So the Deca is clear by April 27.

Now if my assumptions are correct, you actually just miss the Deca’s peak by a few days. But the effective dose still is running for 8 weeks just on the back end.

Am I off base here? If so, I’d like someone to be able to explain where I have gone wrong. Also, Jin, if I have misquoted you on something, clarify it and add in anything you think is important to the thread.

 

[Flyingdragon]

Deca has been shown to be floating around the system a year after injection. So no matter how long u run it, u will probably get a benefit long after u would expect.....

 

[HollyWoodCole]

Deca has been shown to be floating around the system a year after injection. So no matter how long u run it, u will probably get a benefit long after u would expect.....

Benefit OR be affected by sides if that's the case with each person. I love deca, but I'm getting to the point where I don't want to deal with it for so long.

 

[BRICKS]

Looks good to me

 

[Jin]

Basically the question is:

for a similar/equal amount of deca/npp people pinned over 8 weeks, will real world results be equal?

based on my understanding of esters my belief is that you’d be better off results-wise (increased lean mass/decreased BF) running 8 weeks of npp.

Snake maintains that the results would be equal due to the deca being in your system for so much longer.

Part of the reason I think npp is better is that you’d be at peak levels with npp for more days than with deca.

Hopefully I haven’t misrepresented anything as I’m only just up to pee.

 

[snake]

I think that sums it up Jin. Let's see if anyone has any other input.

 

[Rumpy]

First, let me say I love deca, but I'm B & C/TRT. Personally, I would not recommend cycling deca at all if you're going to PCT off. NPP is a much better choice.

I say this for all of the same reasons you've already stated. Deca builds up too slow to really get the full benefit, and it needs to be stopped way before test C or E to clear in time for PCT. NPP on the other hand can be run pretty much to the end of the cycle and still clear at about the same rate as test, so you'll definitely get more benefit from it. This is pretty much the same reason I would never recommend someone cycling sust.

 

[Jada]

Awesome debate, I'd like to hear some vets give there info on this one. I pin deca because i like to pin twice a week, sub to this snakey.

 

[deejeff442]

I am on deca and test sust now just started. Done npp a couple times and like it more then deca but this time around I,am doing a 20 weeks cycle. Never really noticed a difference. Imo it always came down to food.

 

[HollyWoodCole]

Awesome debate, I'd like to hear some vets give there info on this one. I pin deca because i like to pin twice a week, sub to this snakey.

NPP is pinned twice a week as well. I would sometimes pin Deca 1x per week given the ester length.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

As Cecelia mentioned, PCT vs B&C is the primary factor to take into account when deciding which is best for you. NPP for PCT guys, deca for B&C.
I say Deca for B&C because I agree that the results would be near equal overall but have a personal preference for longer acting anabolics vs shorter, higher peaking, forms. Because bodyrecomp is a long term process and blah, blah, blah.

 

[DieYoungStrong]

Deca vs NPP for PCT guys doesn't make a huge difference IMO. It's the nandralone itself that shuts your nuts down hard. You just have to wait longer and stay on some test on the back-end while the deca clears. I think you should do this with NPP too. I actually had this discussion with Dr Scally on Meso years ago - it's the hormone not the ester when it comes to 19-nors shutting you down so hard. So PCT guys - don't think NPP is a "safe" alternative to deca. Both will shut you down just as hard, and have the same risks of making you a trt for life guy. Just deca will shut you down longer. You can recover from both if you time PCT right. I will agree that the shorter amount of time you are shut down, the better your chances of a successful recovery are, and that would lend itself more the NPP....I guess. I ran a bunch of deca cycles with successful PCT in my early days.

I also think age plays a factor. It's much easier to recover from any cycle in your late 20s then it is your late 40s.

As far as drug tests - you'll pop hot a year after NPP same as you would deca. It's nand itself that stays in your system forever.

I've run both and prefer deca because I'm getting sick of pinning in my old age.

 

[Aoutest]

NPP is pinned twice a week as well.

No it's not. The Phenylpropionate ester is injected eod at the outside edge to keep blood levels stable.

I've run 875 Test with 525 NPP for 15 weeks and am now running 875 Test with 525 Deca and am in about week 7. The Decanoate ester takes longer to saturate but in my experience it's really not that big if a difference despite the half life calculation and the release rates.

There is also some talk that NPP is less "bloaty" than Deca but that has not been my experience at all. As long as my E2 is dialed in, I'm lean on NPP and Deca - No moon face.

My protocol is 200mg Test with 150mg Deca/Nand eod regardless of the ester. I use slin pins because they are easy and rotate between delts and lats.

 

[DieYoungStrong]

No it's not. The Phenylpropionate ester is injected eod at the outside edge to keep blood levels stable.

I've run 875 Test with 525 NPP for 15 weeks and am now running 875 Test with 525 Deca and am in about week 7. The Decanoate ester takes longer to saturate but in my experience it's really not that big if a difference despite the half life calculation and the release rates.

There is also some talk that NPP is less "bloaty" than Deca but that has not been my experience at all. As long as my E2 is dialed in, I'm lean on NPP and Deca - No moon face.

My protocol is 200mg Test with 150mg Deca/Nand eod regardless of the ester. I use slin pins because they are easy and rotate between delts and lats.

You can pin NPP or TPP or any other PP ester 2x a week and be just fine. "Stable" blood levels are very overrated and played up on the boards. It's not like you're going to 0. Stable levels matter for guys on trt.

 

[Jaydub]

I personally look at it like this... they're both the same. If you're looking for a hit and quit then NPP is the better choice. If youre worried about sides NPP is the better choice. Deca takes more planning. Now for the given scenario there is a significant amount of time on the front end waiting for the deca to really grip and take hold. Now of course you will see benefits on the back end of the cycle, but you'll see those same benefits with the NPP. I think NPP is an easier compound to cycle with over all. You will get more active peak time with it.

 

[MrRippedZilla]

Deca vs NPP for PCT guys doesn't make a huge difference IMO. It's the nandralone itself that shuts your nuts down hard. You just have to wait longer and stay on some test on the back-end while the deca clears. I think you should do this with NPP too. I actually had this discussion with Dr Scally on Meso years ago - it's the hormone not the ester when it comes to 19-nors shutting you down so hard. So PCT guys - don't think NPP is a "safe" alternative to deca. Both will shut you down just as hard, and have the same risks of making you a trt for life guy. Just deca will shut you down longer. You can recover from both if you time PCT right. I will agree that the shorter amount of time you are shut down, the better your chances of a successful recovery are, and that would lend itself more the NPP....I guess. I ran a bunch of deca cycles with successful PCT in my early days.

You raise some interesting points.

I agree that 19-nors in general are more difficult to recover from vs other AAS forms but that doesn't really change the fact that Deca is a bigger pain in the ass than NPP. Dr Scally himself will admit that dosage used + time on are the 2 key factors in determining the chances of recovery. Well, if Deca hangs around for longer..recovery should be more difficult.

To go on a bit of a tangent, I want to point out some interesting data with TRT patients.
Test E vs Test U (Nebido or Aveed depending on where you live). Looking at how effective these 2 forms of T are as male contraceptives. Again, if the ester makes a difference to how "hard" your balls are shut down then this should be reflected in semen parameters.
200mg Test E per week, over the course of 12 months lead to 58% of subjects becoming azoospermic in a 1990 study. This was redone in 1996 with a large group of subjects and the azoospermic rate was 75%.
Now, Test U. 500mg per month for 6 months in 2003 lead to a 96% azoospermic rate. The study was repeated by a different group in 2009, with a much large (1000+) group of subjects over 30 months, and again found a 96% azoospermic rate.
As we can see, the longer ester makes a huge difference in the level of shut down when it comes to Test and I don't see why it would be different for any other form of AAS.

My point: an argument can be made for avoiding long acting anabolics altogether if the goal is to maximize the chances of recovery and stick to the PCT route. I'm not necessarily making that argument, just saying that this viewpoint would be valid. With 19-nors in particular, outside of avoiding them altogether, it makes sense to me to go with the shortest acting version to maximize the chances of PCT working

 

[Flyingdragon]

I love when DYS says "nuts" :32 (16):

 

[Seeker]

Jin and Snake, I think you guys both require two different answers based on your questions. Ok, first of all there debate from what I can tell has nothing to do about recovery but more to the tune of results oriented using one vs the other over an 8 week period using same dose of each. But Jin is more about the results during and at the end of the 8 week period, and from what I see Snake is more about the results not only during the 8 week period, but the carry over after 8 weeks. Well, my opinion is their both correct to a degree. You will see results using both esters over an 8 week period, but to Jins point I feel you will result in higher "quality" muscle tissue gain with NPP over Deca with those 8 weeks because it does kick in and peaks much faster. Now Snake also has a point because after 8 weeks of termination the slower acting deca will stay with you longer. My issue here is these two esters serve two very different purposes.

It has always been felt that Deca is a better choice for strength and mass gains over a longer period of time and that's solely because it was mostly used at higher doses during bulking periods. That's mostly your reason why deca is known for more water retention. higher doses, longer term administration, usually used during a bulk.

NPP was known to cause less water retention mostly because it was used at lower doses, and because its shorter half life, it would appear to aromatize less. In many cases guys used it also as an addition to a pre contest stack. Today I notice guys using using NPP alot differently than in the past.

 

[snake]

Jin and Snake, I think you guys both require two different answers based on your questions. Ok, first of all there debate from what I can tell has nothing to do about recovery but more to the tune of results oriented using one vs the other over an 8 week period using same dose of each. But Jin is more about the results during and at the end of the 8 week period, and from what I see Snake is more about the results not only during the 8 week period, but the carry over after 8 weeks. Well, my opinion is their both correct to a degree. You will see results using both esters over an 8 week period, but to Jins point I feel you will result in higher "quality" muscle tissue gain with NPP over Deca with those 8 weeks because it does kick in and peaks much faster. Now Snake also has a point because after 8 weeks of termination the slower acting deca will stay with you longer. My issue here is these two esters serve two very different purposes.

It has always been felt that Deca is a better choice for strength and mass gains over a longer period of time and that's solely because it was mostly used at higher doses during bulking periods. That's mostly your reason why deca is known for more water retention. higher doses, longer term administration, usually used during a bulk.

NPP was known to cause less water retention mostly because it was used at lower doses, and because its shorter half life, it would appear to aromatize less. In many cases guys used it also as an addition to a pre contest stack. Today I notice guys using using NPP alot differently than in the past.

There are a few good points brought out in this thread but I think Seeker hit the nail on the head. If you look at my original post he addressed both angles.

In general, it seems like Deca would produce about the same results over the long haul but NPP is going to hit quicker and you will be at peak saturation for a longer period of time. Again, no one is suggesting an 8 week Deca cycle is optimal.

I thought about this even when I wrote up my original post, who would bang 800mg/wk of NPP anyway? But I didn't consider what Seek was saying about the bad wrap Deca got and why at the time. Higher doses of a compound can lead to more sides and he's right, it's not apples to apples when they speak about NPP dosed at 500 mgs and Deca being dosed at 800 mgs.

Thanks for the well thought out post Seek!

 

[Dog-guy]

Kicking this back up for a second lol.
This is an awesome discussion and I'm in a similar dilemma. I'm 48 and on TRT so PCT is a non issue.
I respond well to deca will limited sides so I have often used it in the spring for more of a lean cycle. I have considered the idea of using NPP along with Test C and Deca for the initial 7-8 weeks to allow the Deca to catch up, then drop the NPP and up the Deca slightly for the remainder of a 20 week period. Some of you who know more about NPP and it's combination with Deca give me your thoughts on this. It seemed like that's what Snake was originally proposing but wasn't exactly sure.