Nutrient timing around workouts

MrRippedZilla

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This was requested by Seek in response to some of the posts around the board with regards to carb timing specifically. I'm going to focus on the main points instead of rambling as I usually do due to time constraints. Happy to answer any follow up Qs though :)

Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?

Summary

This review was published in 2013 and since then I have seen nothing to contradict most of their conclusions. The exact amount of protein pre & post workout is debatable due to the inability of acute studies to accurately predict long-term results in terms of muscle growth but beyond that, it holds up. The overall point, that nutrient timing is ****ing irrelevant for the most part, is worth emphasizing. Don't get caught up in the minutia, especially if your enhanced. Take home points:

- In order of importance for protein: Daily intake > protein distribution > protein quality > specific protein timing (around workouts, etc). Focusing on specific timing when your overall intake sucks is missing the forest for the trees - this applies to carbs too.

- The "anabolic window" is around 36-48hrs long. So not so much a "window" and certainly doesn't justify trying to quickly knock down a protein shake post-wo. You can go hours without a meal and it will have no impact on muscle growth - especially coming off a large pre-wo meal.

- Protein at 0.4-0.5g/kg pre & post workout is a fail-safe strategy.

- Carb timing for muscle growth is not a thing. You don't HAVE to to consume them pre-wo but in most cases it makes sense. You don't HAVE to consume them intra-wo but in some cases (high volume training, training when dieting, etc) it makes sense. You don't HAVE to consume the immediately post-wo under any circumstances.

- Fat timing is not a thing either. No need to avoid it around workouts and no need to try and fit it in at any specific time.
 
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Seeker

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Thank you, Zilla. :) damn system won't let me rep you since because of my last one. Maybe someone can do one for me.
 

transcend2007

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This just makes sense to me .... it reminds me of the old axiom - work out more and eat less ... this discusses that timing nutrients is fine but not absolutely required (especially if enhanced) ... it also states what is critical .. and that is to eat the required macros and calories daily ... people overthink things and miss the mission critical factors ... which comes down to - schedule your meals and eat them ... don't lose sleep if you don't get your post workout calories in 30 minutes after your workout.

What is not stated is that supplement companies have driven these ideas that we all somewhere along the line were told and then repeat like parrots to everyone we know ... the science does not support most nutritional timing regimens ... thank you for this post ...
 

gymrat827

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i think nutrient timing can be pretty basic but you can also argue what/when quite a bit too. Knowledge is power
 

Gadawg

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I heard a report on the radio recently that consuming a protein heavy meal or supplement just before bed led to increased muscle growth in the study participants. I always figured protein before bed seems smart as you are going to do the most growing while you sleep so I always have a shake right before bed. Think it matters?
 

MrRippedZilla

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I heard a report on the radio recently that consuming a protein heavy meal or supplement just before bed led to increased muscle growth in the study participants. I always figured protein before bed seems smart as you are going to do the most growing while you sleep so I always have a shake right before bed. Think it matters?
No it doesn't. I argued against this idea pretty damn well on another board. I'll see if I can find my post and paste it over here but the main gist of it is that the studies supporting it sucked ass. Some were acute (impossible to measure muscle growth). Some didn't balance protein intake between the groups (making the study of timing specifically pointless) and a whole host of other problems.

Casein before bed, the main focus of those studies, is a good way to keep appetite under control when dieting IME. The actual impact on muscle growth is close to zero. As with most nutrient timing strategies.
 

Gadawg

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The fact that people can live on the carnivore diet while only eating once per day with no noticeable health issues blew most of this stuff out of the water for me.

Also, it makes zero evolutionary sense for bodily functions to be influenced by when you eat
 

PillarofBalance

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This was the issue that got me to switch from listening to broscience to actual facts and evidence instead. I can't eat after training. Takes an hour or more sometimes for my appetite to return. But there I was, cramming food down my throat and trying not to puke it up.

**** the anabolic window.
 

Elivo

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This is useful info, I was the same way, worrying about getting some protein in right after a workout, and I need a bit of time before I can eat.
 

Viduus

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No it doesn't. I argued against this idea pretty damn well on another board. I'll see if I can find my post and paste it over here but the main gist of it is that the studies supporting it sucked ass. Some were acute (impossible to measure muscle growth). Some didn't balance protein intake between the groups (making the study of timing specifically pointless) and a whole host of other problems.

Casein before bed, the main focus of those studies, is a good way to keep appetite under control when dieting IME. The actual impact on muscle growth is close to zero. As with most nutrient timing strategies.

I haven’t read the study but two things instantly come to mind:

1) Sure you’d see more muscle growth because you’re consuming more protein. I’m assuming this is what Zilla was referencing with the balanced protein intake comment.

2) Keeping amino acid levels elevated in the blood. A car can’t keep driving very far if it’s running outnofngas every few hours. What I don’t know much about isnhow our body regulates protein levels in the blood. Does it have a feedback loop like blood sugar? Can the blood “store” protein somehow? (Beyond muscle) That would be the only argument that would make sense to me for regular protein intake. Admittedly, it’s why I eat protein every few hours.
 

Viduus

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Zilla, any thoughts on the idea of post workout carbs to cause an insulin response and “shuttle protein”? That’s a commonly referenced tactic.

I know protein causes an insulin response on its own... would the response from carbs improve it or is do you believe that’s all bro science?
 

Grego

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thanks for the post.

36 hours to get the food in your gut pretty much says it all. you can see the OMAD guys getting good results. it is unimaginable to try and eat 4000 cal in one sitting though.
the science is there for IF for numerous heath reasons.
As for eating and going to bed, there is evidence that you are doing less good than going to bed hungry for recovery.
after it is all said and done if you need 4000 cal a day you should eat them but it doesn't matter when
 

MrRippedZilla

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2) Keeping amino acid levels elevated in the blood. A car can’t keep driving very far if it’s running outnofngas every few hours. What I don’t know much about isnhow our body regulates protein levels in the blood. Does it have a feedback loop like blood sugar? Can the blood “store” protein somehow? (Beyond muscle) That would be the only argument that would make sense to me for regular protein intake. Admittedly, it’s why I eat protein every few hours.
Protein metabolism is adaptive. Because evolution didn't design us to require extremely specific timing when it comes to the most important macro of them all.

Oh and we actually have infusion data showing that if you keep amino acid levels elevated in the blood all the time, your body down-regulates protein metabolism. We also know that it up-regulates protein metabolism in response to a sudden switch to reduce protein feedings. The body is ****ing amazing at making sure the net effect of these strategies is close to zero. No point fighting against it, just appreciate the awesomeness.

Zilla, any thoughts on the idea of post workout carbs to cause an insulin response and “shuttle protein”? That’s a commonly referenced tactic.
I know protein causes an insulin response on its own... would the response from carbs improve it or is do you believe that’s all bro science?
My thoughts can be summed up as "lol".
Manipulating natural insulin levels is a waste of time and leads to nothing - something else I wrote a pretty damn good post about elsewhere that I'll need to find. This piece of broscience comes from guys who saw the magic of exogenous insulin and assumed that something similar could be replicated at a smaller level with natural levels. It cannot. Even with exogenous insulin, you need to use crazy high doses on a solo run to get a true growth benefit vs just some anti-catabolic action - discussed a bit here. The real magic comes when it is combined with AAS and GH.
 

Viduus

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Oh and we actually have infusion data showing that if you keep amino acid levels elevated in the blood all the time, your body down-regulates protein metabolism. We also know that it up-regulates protein metabolism in response to a sudden switch to reduce protein feedings. The body is ****ing amazing at making sure the net effect of these strategies is close to zero. No point fighting against it, just appreciate the awesomeness.

This is fascinating. It makes a lot of sense since we’re so specialized for energy conservation. Why waste the energy to process more of a nutrient the body is in an over supply of. I’ll have to add this to the list of things to read up on... Thanks as usual...
 

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