Do you train to failure?

Joined
Jun 12, 2019
Messages
75
Reaction score
68
Points
18
Curious with everyones success, or lack thereof, with training to failure.

When Mike Matthews posted about this topic last week I thought, "I train to failure in all but my first set"

But, I've thought about it and went to the gym a few times since his post.
I found that I wasn't training to absolute failure but to technical failure (or can't do another rep without form breaking down).
Nearly every set was to or on-the-brink of technical failure which is way more than what studies show to be most optimal (the studies quoted by Mike Matthews).

Anyways, I've attached an except, from my short discussion with Mike, of my position and his response.

Where do you stand? How do you train?
 

Attachments

  • スクリーンショット 2019-09-21 午&#21.jpg
    スクリーンショット 2019-09-21 午&#21.jpg
    19.4 KB · Views: 34
  • スクリーンショット 2019-09-21 午&#21.jpg
    スクリーンショット 2019-09-21 午&#21.jpg
    22.3 KB · Views: 24

dk8594

Elite
SI Founding Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
3,220
Reaction score
5,630
Points
238
Yes, I train to failure.

I start with 2-3 warms ups, then working sets to failure. I don't utilize the cheat principle (I keep my form), but will do supersets/ drop sets if I want to go beyond.

My criticism of proponents of those who recommend stopping 2-3 reps short of failure has always been how the hell do you know where failure is unless you reach it? Guess? Stop when it gets uncomfortable?

If I remember correctly, though, you're also the guy who likes to workout with rubber bands. I do not recommend failure with rubber bands. The duration and lactic acid build up of going to failure with bands would make any grown man cry.

EDIT: Just looked up Mike Matthews. If it makes you feel any better, I doubt he goes to failure (or has a leg day)
 
Last edited:

Spongy

Senior Moderator
SI Founding Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
4,220
Points
193
Technical failure with very few exceptions. Waaaaay to many people, including many on this forum, are overtraining and not giving themselves the opportunity to grow.
 

Spongy

Senior Moderator
SI Founding Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
4,220
Points
193
Yes, I train to failure.

I start with 2-3 warms ups, then working sets to failure. I don't utilize the cheat principle (I keep my form), but will do supersets/ drop sets if I want to go beyond.

My criticism of proponents of those who recommend stopping 2-3 reps short of failure has always been how the hell do you know where failure is unless you reach it? Guess? Stop when it gets uncomfortable?

If I remember correctly, though, you're also the guy who likes to workout with rubber bands. I do not recommend failure with rubber bands. The duration and lactic acid build up of going to failure with bands would make any grown man cry.

You're not going to true failure if you are maintaining your form. I think you and I are on the same page regarding drop sets to go beyond technical failure, etc.
 

dk8594

Elite
SI Founding Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
3,220
Reaction score
5,630
Points
238
You're not going to true failure if you are maintaining your form. I think you and I are on the same page regarding drop sets to go beyond technical failure, etc.

Good point.

To clarify for OP, I would stop curls when I can no longer do elbow flexion; not when my delts/ lower back give out.
 

Seeker

Veteran
SI Founding Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
8,859
Reaction score
10,718
Points
333
lol there's been a thread on how to effectively use cheat reps. But that is another thread. My answer is, and this has been thoroughly discussed with another member who also wrote a great thread on failure, the closer your reps are to failure, the more effective they are at building muscle. Mr. Mathews is one person I'll avoid on IG
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2019
Messages
75
Reaction score
68
Points
18
Yes, I train to failure.

I start with 2-3 warms ups, then working sets to failure. I don't utilize the cheat principle (I keep my form), but will do supersets/ drop sets if I want to go beyond.

My criticism of proponents of those who recommend stopping 2-3 reps short of failure has always been how the hell do you know where failure is unless you reach it? Guess? Stop when it gets uncomfortable?

If I remember correctly, though, you're also the guy who likes to workout with rubber bands. I do not recommend failure with rubber bands. The duration and lactic acid build up of going to failure with bands would make any grown man cry.

EDIT: Just looked up Mike Matthews. If it makes you feel any better, I doubt he goes to failure (or has a leg day)

Yes, I'm that guy. lol I think the assumption is low-rep workouts can't be achieved with resistant bands. However, with the three packs of bands I had, each pack had about 140lbs worth of bands, I had low-rep workouts on chest, back and shoulders.

yeah, Mike dosen't really go to failure because he thinks it does more harm than good. And the studies seem to back him up
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 12, 2019
Messages
75
Reaction score
68
Points
18
the closer your reps are to failure, the more effective they are at building muscle

I have the same sentiment

The question is, have you gone too far if you reach absolute failure? Or technical failure? Have you done more harm than good, for instance. Are you crossing a threshold where the risk and reward ratio reaches the inflection point
 
Last edited:

Seeker

Veteran
SI Founding Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2013
Messages
8,859
Reaction score
10,718
Points
333
I have the same sentiment

The question is, have you gone too far if you reach absolute failure? Or technical failure?

the answer is no you have not gone too far. you do not have to sacrifice form to go to absolute failure. As DK, suggested, you can use drop sets, pause sets, and other variations. progression is always key.. partnered with tension and volume and you now have a formula for successful muscle growth.
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2019
Messages
75
Reaction score
68
Points
18
the answer is no you have not gone too far. you do not have to sacrifice form to go to absolute failure. As DK, suggested, you can use drop sets, pause sets, and other variations. progression is always key.. partnered with tension and volume and you now have a formula for successful muscle growth.

I like your answer

Wonder what others think...
 

snake

Veteran
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
12,303
Reaction score
19,739
Points
383
Oh hell no! Only one set of each would be to failure and it was typically set 3 of 4.

Here's the way I looked at it and it from a PL approach. You have one full tank when you walk into the gym and it's not going to get refilled. Focus on that one big heavy set and build up to it. If you go to failure on each set, you will have to use less weight throughout your exercise. I think for BBing you can train to failure more often because the weight is less relevant.

The last few year I have been leaving one in the tank. The risk of injury is a factor and longevity is my focus now.
 

Spongy

Senior Moderator
SI Founding Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
4,220
Points
193
Oh hell no! Only one set of each would be to failure and it was typically set 3 of 4.

Here's the way I looked at it and it from a PL approach. You have one full tank when you walk into the gym and it's not going to get refilled. Focus on that one big heavy set and build up to it. If you go to failure on each set, you will have to use less weight throughout your exercise. I think for BBing you can train to failure more often because the weight is less relevant.

The last few year I have been leaving one in the tank. The risk of injury is a factor and longevity is my focus now.

Very good point Snake. Depends on goals, age, methods, etc...

I'm still not convinced everyone that says they train to true failure actually understands the difference between that and technical failure.
 

dk8594

Elite
SI Founding Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Messages
3,220
Reaction score
5,630
Points
238
Very good point Snake. Depends on goals, age, methods, etc...

I'm still not convinced everyone that says they train to true failure actually understands the difference between that and technical failure.

Can you add a little definition here?

In my mind, absolute failure means my heart stops, but I think you are defining it somewhat differently
 

Spongy

Senior Moderator
SI Founding Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
4,220
Points
193
Can you add a little definition here?

In my mind, absolute failure means my heart stops, but I think you are defining it somewhat differently

Technical = form breaks down, can no longer perform rep

True failure = form breaks, rep fails, other methods are used to continue (drop sets, etc).

I take every working set to technical failure, not true failure.
 

Spongy

Senior Moderator
SI Founding Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
4,766
Reaction score
4,220
Points
193
so for me, for instance... True failure would be along the lines of DC training followed immediately by a drop set.

heavy ass weight 6-10 reps to technical failure

rack weight, 15 deep breaths

same weight AMRAP

15 deep breaths (racked weight)

same weight AMRAP follow immediately by a drop set that has 2-3 drops
 

BigSwolePump

Elite
Joined
Apr 1, 2017
Messages
4,012
Reaction score
4,832
Points
193
Personally, I don't train to failure, if failure means that I can't do another rep at any cost. I am big on form. Once you lose form and start bending and stretching outside of the intended plain of the exercise, you are opening yourself to injury. God knows that I have had my share of injury and at my age, I am not putting myself in that situation anymore. I have two awesome torn pecs that cost me over a year of training between the two because I was a get it up at all cost kinda guy. No need for that shit IMO. Live and learn
 
Joined
Jun 12, 2019
Messages
75
Reaction score
68
Points
18
Oh hell no! Only one set of each would be to failure and it was typically set 3 of 4.

Here's the way I looked at it and it from a PL approach. You have one full tank when you walk into the gym and it's not going to get refilled. Focus on that one big heavy set and build up to it. If you go to failure on each set, you will have to use less weight throughout your exercise. I think for BBing you can train to failure more often because the weight is less relevant.

The last few year I have been leaving one in the tank. The risk of injury is a factor and longevity is my focus now.

very good take on it, thanks
 

New Threads

Top