Low carb dieting (CKD) debate!

[I'mThatFitGuy]

I want to get back to your point on bonking during athletic events. Long one, so bear with me. I get into a little bit of basic physiology before I get to the point.

How the body breaks down glucose, simplified: C6H12O6(molecule of glucose)+6O2(breathe in) = 6H20(water)+6CO2(breathed out). Not much oxygen is required for this process, that's why it's called anaerobic. Fast energy.

Typical fatty acid: C54H108O6(quick Google search, I didn't remember this formula off the top of my head). Similar process as above, but you can clearly see that MUCH more oxygen is required for the process to take place. The rate limiting factor is oxygen. That's why it's called Aerobic. Much more energy is released via this process, but it's slower.

When the chemical bonds are broken, is when energy is released, the whole acetyl CoA/ATP to ADP to ATP/Krebs Cycle process. Byproducts are water(sweat), carbon dioxide(expelled during breathing), and heat(we're warm blooded) It's more involved than this, but it's honestly been awhile since I studied this, so I'd need to dig back into my physiology textbooks to give a 100% accurate description of the process.

Back to the BONK. You can walk all day, because the energy requirement is low, and is easily covered by the slower burning fatty acids. You start jogging, and as you go faster, you start breathing more because more oxygen is required for the processes described above. Eventually you're going so fast that you past the Aerobic threshold and either have to slow down or you'll burn through available glucose and the oxygen you're taking in isn't enough to keep up with energy demands via fatty acid oxidation. The "bonk". Your fuel utilization has slid so far to the glucose side of the spectrum that the body can't keep up. That's why you neither sprint nor walk a marathon, you want the ideal blend of fat and glucose utilization for peak performance. It's a spectrum, NOT an either/or.

I don't believe your thoughts on what causes you to bonk are completely accurate. This is my view of what happens, from an article on line. From you posts I've read, it seems that you disagree with this explanation.

Bonking

What is bonking and why does it happen?

Bonking, also known as hitting the wall, is a term used to describe what happens when your body runs low on glycogen to burn as a fuel source. While your body can burn fat directly for energy, it tends to prefer glycogen, as it is easier to burn and more efficient. Thus, when running at marathon pace, some portion of your energy output is going to come from burning glycogen – there’s no way around this. As your glycogen stores begin to run low, your body recognizes the potential danger and slows the body down gradually to conserve energy.

At this point, you can still run, but your pace will begin to slow unless you increase your effort. However, if you continue, your glycogen stores will get so low that your body will basically shut down and even jogging will be almost impossible.This is what’s called bonking. Bonking is not feeling tired; bonking is not an inability to move your legs faster. Bonking is when your glycogen stores get low enough that your brain shuts down your body.

What does it feel like to bonk?

A “true” bonk will almost always result in you not being able to physical run any longer. You may be able to shuffle and probably walk, but anything that resembles running is likely out the window. More than likely you’ll feel dizzy or light-headed (a result of your brain not getting the glycogen it needs) and some runners feel nauseous. As you can see, this feeling is a bit different than fading or getting fatigued during the latter miles.

 

[CJ]

I don't believe your thoughts on what causes you to bonk are completely accurate. This is my view of what happens, from an article on line. From you posts I've read, it seems that you disagree with this explanation.

Bonking

What is bonking and why does it happen?

Bonking, also known as hitting the wall, is a term used to describe what happens when your body runs low on glycogen to burn as a fuel source. While your body can burn fat directly for energy, it tends to prefer glycogen, as it is easier to burn and more efficient. Thus, when running at marathon pace, some portion of your energy output is going to come from burning glycogen – there’s no way around this. As your glycogen stores begin to run low, your body recognizes the potential danger and slows the body down gradually to conserve energy.

At this point, you can still run, but your pace will begin to slow unless you increase your effort. However, if you continue, your glycogen stores will get so low that your body will basically shut down and even jogging will be almost impossible.This is what’s called bonking. Bonking is not feeling tired; bonking is not an inability to move your legs faster. Bonking is when your glycogen stores get low enough that your brain shuts down your body.

What does it feel like to bonk?

A “true” bonk will almost always result in you not being able to physical run any longer. You may be able to shuffle and probably walk, but anything that resembles running is likely out the window. More than likely you’ll feel dizzy or light-headed (a result of your brain not getting the glycogen it needs) and some runners feel nauseous. As you can see, this feeling is a bit different than fading or getting fatigued during the latter miles.

Isn't this exactly what I said???


And how about this quote by you.... "While your body can burn fat directly for energy, it tends to prefer glycogen, as it is easier to burn and more efficient. Thus, when running at marathon pace, some portion of your energy output is going to come from burning glycogen – there’s no way around this. As your glycogen stores begin to run low, your body recognizes the potential danger and slows the body down gradually to conserve energy."

Aren't you agreeing with me here that the body INDEED CAN AND DOES use both fat and glycogen for fuel simultaneously along a spectrum? Seems pretty clear to me that you just agreed with me, and again contradicted yourself.

Edit: I didn't place the highlights within this post, they were a carry over from copying your post.

 

[CJ]

The TRUE reason that ketogenic diets can help in losing weight is the same reason that all diets work. Calorie restriction via excluding certain foods.

On keto, it's really fukkin hard to overeat because fats are very filling, and they don't trigger the same reward pathways in the brain as something like a highly processed chemically engineered junk food does. There's no magic involved.

The exact same thing is the goal of ANY diet. Same thing would happen in the carnivore diet. Same thing in a plant based whole foods diet. How many apples could someone eat before they got palate fatigue? A lot less calories than if thry were eating Apple Jacks cereal!

People should use a diet that fits their lifestyle and is sustainable. I wouldn't steer anyone to keto or carnivore or any fad diet, but if it works for them, fine. You even stated in an earlier post that people on a keto diet should be closely monitored by a dr. Not my definition of sustainable, but to each their own.

 

[CJ]

And getting back to how you don't believe weight loss/gain is due to Cals in/out... You stated in an earlier post that you believe that as long as you're in a ketogenic state, your body will "piss out" excess fats you eat and not store them as bodyfat. ("Basically piss out fat" -Post #19 in thread)

Can you provide done data/research on this claim? I'm having a very hard time getting past this claim you made.

 

[I'mThatFitGuy]

Something you quoted:
"The keto diet can be a great way to get in shape, but should always be done under the supervision of a medical professional."

Really sounds like a reasonable, sustainable approach to nutrition. Please note my sarcasm

So, almost every mainstream media outlet always seems to want put in some sort of "negative, qualifying statement" into their article, even if the article is in support of ketogenic diets. Almost like a CYA move. I, and many people who've been low carb a really long time, are proof of it's sustainability. But, because you and I seem to disagree on what is actually happening in the body, it's tough to reconcile our views.

I was thinking last night, find me a guinea pig, errr...upstanding board member who I can help get really lean. Let's see what happens. It can be you or anyone else. I'll just ask for a few things.

1. Gotta be someone that I don't have to worry about them being disciplined. Hits the gym consistently, has good diet discipline where I don't have to worry about them cheating. I don't want to have to babysit them. More like point them in the right directions and off they go. Carnivores will LOVE this way of eating. And, I don't really put a ceiling on calorie intake in the beginning.

2. This person will keep a journal on the board, post at least twice a week, and give honest feedback and not play to the board because of peer pressure or sabotage it.

3. I'd prefer someone who's never been able to get really lean before, even though they've been eating "right" for a long time. If you've been sub 10% fat before (sub 15% for a woman), you don't need me.

4. Because there will be a LOT of info in the beginning, I'd probably want to be able to talk on the phone with them. It will also be easier to work through any hurdles we might run into. But, after I get them going, it'll mostly be communication by text or maybe even better, through the journal. But, it'll be waaaay to much work to do it all with typed messages.

Other than that, I'll take anyone. Male/female, 15% fat, 20%, 30%...doesn't matter. But, someone who REALLY wants it. One of my problems with diet coaching is that my clients would become easily satisfied and mentally quit on me before we'd reach goal. Once i wanted it for them more than they did, I was done. Had one client, AA woman, 5'3", 225lbs. Couldn't even put fat calipers on her. Goal was 135lbs. Started late Oct, was down 50 by mid Jan. She goes on a 10 day vacation to India and when she came back, you could tell she'd checked out. It was too easy for her and she got satisfied. I got another 10 off of her over the next two months, but then I gave up and told her she needed to find another trainer. I couldn't deal anymore. 30lbs from goal weight. Way too much babysitting.

Offer's on the table....

I'm done til tomorrow. Who's game?

 

[CJ]

So, almost every mainstream media outlet always seems to want put in some sort of "negative, qualifying statement" into their article, even if the article is in support of ketogenic diets. Almost like a CYA move. I, and many people who've been low carb a really long time, are proof of it's sustainability. But, because you and I seem to disagree on what is actually happening in the body, it's tough to reconcile our views.

I was thinking last night, find me a guinea pig, errr...upstanding board member who I can help get really lean. Let's see what happens. It can be you or anyone else. I'll just ask for a few things.

1. Gotta be someone that I don't have to worry about them being disciplined. Hits the gym consistently, has good diet discipline where I don't have to worry about them cheating. I don't want to have to babysit them. More like point them in the right directions and off they go. Carnivores will LOVE this way of eating. And, I don't really put a ceiling on calorie intake in the beginning.

2. This person will keep a journal on the board, post at least twice a week, and give honest feedback and not play to the board because of peer pressure or sabotage it.

3. I'd prefer someone who's never been able to get really lean before, even though they've been eating "right" for a long time. If you've been sub 10% fat before (sub 15% for a woman), you don't need me.

4. Because there will be a LOT of info in the beginning, I'd probably want to be able to talk on the phone with them. It will also be easier to work through any hurdles we might run into. But, after I get them going, it'll mostly be communication by text or maybe even better, through the journal. But, it'll be waaaay to much work to do it all with typed messages.

Other than that, I'll take anyone. Male/female, 15% fat, 20%, 30%...doesn't matter. But, someone who REALLY wants it. One of my problems with diet coaching is that my clients would become easily satisfied and mentally quit on me before we'd reach goal. Once i wanted it for them more than they did, I was done. Had one client, AA woman, 5'3", 225lbs. Couldn't even put fat calipers on her. Goal was 135lbs. Started late Oct, was down 50 by mid Jan. She goes on a 10 day vacation to India and when she came back, you could tell she'd checked out. It was too easy for her and she got satisfied. I got another 10 off of her over the next two months, but then I gave up and told her she needed to find another trainer. I couldn't deal anymore. 30lbs from goal weight. Way too much babysitting.

Offer's on the table....

Nobody is arguing that they would get lean on a keto/low carb diet, of course they can if the Cals in is less than the Cals out. Same thing would happen on a mixed macro diet, as proven in the meta analysis I linked previously. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568065/
Experiment has been done many times before, I'm not arguing against you on that.

I do encourage anyone who wanted to try keto to take you up on your offer though. It's a great opportunity.

How about an alternate experiment. You go keto, eat 10,000 + Cals daily of WHATEVER fat dominant foods you prefer, only for a month so it's not too unreasonable, and lets see what happens. I doubt you'll "piss out" that fat out and get lean, as you claimed earlier.

No "diet" is best for everyone. I tried very low carb once, for a couple of months back when I was doing competitive crossfit (shut it!!!). I bonked almost DAILY!! I was missing the top gear. I would fade like a solar powered calculator in the shade, it was that quick. It was absolutely terrible for me at the time. Lost water weight and muscle glycogen stores, AND PERFORMANCE.

Blanket statements are usually a poor choice.

 

[CJ]

WHOA!!!!!!

QUOTE by you... "And, I don't really put a ceiling on calorie intake in the beginning."

If calories in/out don't matter, why would you EVER put a restriction on calories? THIS WHOLE DEBATE WAS ABOUT CALS IN/OUT VS INSULIN BEING THE CAUSE OF ONE BEING OVERFAT!!!

Are you contradicting yourself again? I'll need some clarification on this.

 

[CJ]

Also in regards to your low cal/keto offer...

What if one say, had an Italian wife, who loved to cook and made all delicious foods including pastas and sauces? Are they doomed to be fat forever unless they strain their marriage so they can go keto/low carb?

Or maybe would it be prudent to try a different dieting strategy?

That's why a diet has to fit one's lifestyle and be sustainable. Luckiky there's many choices besides keto.

 

[CJ]

Looking back at last summer, from mid May to Early to August, I decided to lean out.

I use regularly eating 350-400g daily of carbohydrate daily, which was about 45% of my total calories. Consuming over 3000 Cals daily. I leaned out pretty nicely.

By your beliefs, I should've become fat because I was eating such a large amount and percentage of carbohydrate.

How do you explain this?

I'll link the pic in the log on this site in a minute.

Can't figure out how to link it, but it's Post 46 in the "I Want To Be A Real Boy" log in the Member's Online Journal forum.

P.S. Most people in my family are fat, and they're are diabetics, both Tyoe 1 and 2. Can't say I have genetics to be lean and burn carbs effectively.

 

[transcend2007]

Hardly the case. And I've been doing low carbs for almost 20 years. You didn't read my posts. Read ALL of my posts, in all the sections, then comment. Hard to make intelligent comments if you come into the conversation at the end. Actually, CJ275 invited me to debate him on the topic. I USED to diet coach. I still help friends who ask me to guide them. I offer help to people who've been fat all their lives and have no idea what to do because they've tried what their trainers told them to do AND NOTHING HAPPENED. So, they blame themselves, not the trainer and the info they got. I could give a shit about what you all do as far as diet. I just like helping fat people lose weight cuz it's not always their fault. They've just been lied to about how to eat.

And you mention elite athletes. I know for a fact that Ben Rothlesburger went keto. That's how he dropped so much weight. As with elite BB's, the vast majority of elite athletes also have elite genetics, including insulin sensitivity. However, this showed up first in a Google search of "keto atheletes".

LeBron James lost weight on the keto diet.
The keto-style diet helped the NBA superstar lose a " ton of weight" in 2014. The keto diet can be a great way to get in shape, but should always be done under the supervision of a medical professional.Jul 16, 2018

In fact, if people are just going to be assholes because of the thread because it threatens their belief system and they can't be that open minded about anything that does, just delete it and I'll end the discussion now. I'm doing this to spread, what I believe to be, very good information. If you're not interested, but still wanna feed me shit about it, then You're the one with the issue. And, I don't need your shit.

By citing specific athletes you make my point .. they are the rare exceptions (if you read my very short post .. I had no interest in reading all of posts as they are extremely thin on content pretty long on biased explanation) and if you actually read this full thread you might have actual learned something as you have been clearly schooled.

Also if the pic in your avi is you .. it would be considered very average when compared to others on this board .. perhaps far below standard ... have you seen Snake .. Brick .. Trump .. Jin ... and dozens of others ... they are as far ahead of you in physique as a human being is above the 1 celled amoeba ... and they do not get all preachy either .. they share knowledge in a way the rest us can understand and admire and even try to emulate ... perhaps consider that before responding (like a winy little bltch) ....

 

[BRICKS]

Less theorization and mental masturbation, more lifting heavy shit and eating. But what would I know, we (Mrs.BRICKS and myself) must have been doing it wrong all these years.

 

[j2048b]

My wifes best friend who has always been big, has lost over 50 lbs doing low carb, keto along w fasting (all this weight lost after years of trying AND GASTRIC BYPASS over 10 yrs ago) could not loose any more weight until she did low carb keto and added in fasting...

 

[CJ]

Could finally see, and read, the link you posted (Post #58 of this thread) https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-signs-and-symptoms-of-ketosis#section1

Here is an interesting quote from it, which supports my calories in vs out argument...

"After the initial rapid drop in water weight, you should continue to lose body fat consistently as long as you stick to the diet and remain in a calorie deficit."

AS LONG AS YOU REMAIN IN A CALORIE DEFICIT.


And that article links to this article, titled Seven Graphs That Prove Calories Count... https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-graphs-prove-calories-count

I read the article, and I have no problems with it. It's good stuff. But it seems like you have horse blinders on, and only see what you want to see. Please keep an open mind, especially when articles you cite as support directly refute what you're saying.

 

[CJ]

My wifes best friend who has always been big, has lost over 50 lbs doing low carb, keto along w fasting (all this weight lost after years of trying AND GASTRIC BYPASS over 10 yrs ago) could not loose any more weight until she did low carb keto and added in fasting...

That's awesome! I'm glad she found what works for her, always happy when I hear that. Keto will work, fasting will work, as long as calorie balance is in check.

 

[DF]

The one thing that grabbed me in this thread was CJ DELIVERS BACON!
SONOFABITCH! where do I sign up for that job?

 

[Rhino99]

What have I learned from this thread...

CJ is smarter than me.

The OP is really hulksmash.

If I breathe quickly while eating pizza it will instantly burn off.

 

[Bro Bundy]

All that low carb , Keto bs is for fat people or very low level “ athletes”.. For me low carb never worked well unless I was a fat out of shape mess . Once your in shape and training at a certain level u need carbs just the right kind of carbs .

 

[Rhino99]

BB
what carbs do u eat and how many grams daily, what is your body weight?

 

[I'mThatFitGuy]

Could finally see, and read, the link you posted (Post #58 of this thread) https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/10-signs-and-symptoms-of-ketosis#section1 AS LONG AS YOU REMAIN IN A CALORIE DEFICIT.


And that article links to this article, titled Seven Graphs That Prove Calories Count... https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-graphs-prove-calories-count/QUOTE]
Haven't read thru the posts, but wanted to put something up for you to read. What occurred to me about our discussion is that we're debating and comparing two energy pathways in humans, while I'm trying to teach you the physiology of the body while in a ketogenic state, but you dismiss most of it as "my opionion". So, please check this study out. I didnt read the entire thing, but it seemed to be what I was looking for.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?...vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&u=#p=6gZ5INZrx74J

Then, we can discuss anything you disagree with. Me just addressing your questions the way we have doesn't further the discussion.

So, yes, I agree that to lose fat, there has to be a calorie deficit. No, I'm not contradicting myself, as I'm sure you're thinking right now. I NEVER said there didnt. I said as far as fat loss is concerned, a calorie is NOT a calorie. You've extrapolated that to imply that I don't feel there's a need to have a calorie deficit because you believe that in order to achieve one, you MUST eat less calories than you burn...because you believe a calorie is a calorie. I do not. The study you posted, and that I quoted, said that very thing. That all sorts of hormonal changes that occur during fat loss make it NOT a simple math equation.

Calorie deficits can be measured over all sorts of time periods. Do I assume when you speak of them, you mean measured on a daily basis? When I speak of then, I mean daily, hourly, momentary. I mean, in the body, that's really how processes operate, in the moment. Any other time period of measure is really just an arbitrary time frame we impose. So, what if by being in a ketogenic state, I can create LOTS of moments of calorie deficit, consistantly/constantly over a prolonged time period, without gaining fat in the interim moments? Think about it...

I love the discussion, so please read the study and let's discuss some more.

 

[I'mThatFitGuy]

I tried the link, but it didn't work because it's a pdf. Search this header.

A review of low-carbohydrate ketogenic diets - ‎Westman - Cited by 163