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  1. #13
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    These are some bold statements by you, do you have anything to back up these claims?..... "I think that most of us are born "pre-diabetic" because most of us are insulin resistant to a certain point. Insulin insensitivity is a natural state."

    Also would still like to know what you think happens if one were to grossly overconsume dietary fats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I'mThatFitGuy View Post
    Ok, let me rephrase/elaborate. Type 2 diabetes is the result of a person's natural state of being insulin insensitive, which is then aggravated by eating carbohydrates for long periods of time, to the point that we call it diabetes. It's not like a predisposition. I think that most of us are born "pre-diabetic" because most of us are insulin resistant to a certain point. Then, as it gets worse, medicine has determined an arbitrary threshold for doctors to call it "pre-diabeties", which, for the vast majority, eventually turns into full blown diabetes. The condition doesn't develop from nothing, like say cancer. It's more like you're born with it and it just progresses based on diet.

    Insulin insensitivity is a natural state. As I said before, in people...some more, some less. Type 2 diabetes is the result of bombarding these resistant receptors for years to the point where the receptors shut down. Then, people are given drugs to up regulate receptors (metformin) and are put on a low fat diet. But, they don't get better. They get progressively worse and eventually insulin production shuts down for lots of them. I think that's what the A1C levels are about for type 2 diabetics. Type 1 is a different condition, in that respect. But, the end result is essentially the same...the inability to deal with carbs in the diet without medication. If you know the story of the Atkin's diet, Dr. Atkins treated diabetics. He created the diet so he could take his patients OFF of insulin completely. The fat loss was a byproduct.
    ok, thanks for clarifying b/c i saw that and had to comment. I can tell you that my type 1 has nothing to do with my diet or family nature, not a single person other than me on any side has any diabetes.

    As for people that are Type 2 and being put on Metformin...pretty much as you put it is the reason for it. However, I know several of people that started Met and a few months down the road, off all concerns. Many reasons for T2D but generally speaking, yes diet is a big concern for obvious reasons. I think you have some points in line with diabetes but I cant agree with all of these. I dont think everyone is born pre-diabetic b/y saying everyone is insulin resistant to a certain point...that argument could be said with just about anything out there as everyone is going to be, to some degree, resistant to a lot of different scenarios medically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    These are some bold statements by you, do you have anything to back up these claims?..... "I think that most of us are born "pre-diabetic" because most of us are insulin resistant to a certain point. Insulin insensitivity is a natural state."

    Also would still like to know what you think happens if one were to grossly overconsume dietary fats.
    agree 100%.

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    This reminds me of the vegetarian converts .. my new way is the best way .. which there is now science to back up vegan lifestyle is no healthier ... same with low carb ... intermittent fasting .. basically you are are selling something ...

    You look at Pro bodybuilders or Pro athletes at any very high level and the great majority are eating a health - well balanced diet low in sugar but not low carbs overall ...

    Again if it works for you and allows you a successful business .. great .. but overall as snake said sustainability trumps everything ... doing something for a year or 5 years is great ... what about doing it for 80 years which is what a healthy lifestyle in all about .... I don't need the latest fad ... I'll take a sensible higher protein diet similar to the Zone for life.
    HRT for life!

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    Also curious as to your thoughts on active people, who need large amounts of carbohydrate to support highly glycolytic exercise. Are they insulin resistant too and on their way to obesity and/or type 2 diabetes, or is their insulin sensitivity actually high because their body is using the carbohydrate efficiently for fuel?

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    Quick article outlining a meta analysis of calorie and protein equated, high carb low fat vs low carb high fat diets...

    https://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-...-body-fatness/

    And a link to the actual study for a deeper dive...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568065/

    Quote from the study.. "These results are in the opposite direction to the predictions of the carbohydrate-insulin model, but the effect sizes are so small as to be physiologically meaningless. In other words, for all practical purposes “a calorie is a calorie” when it comes to body fat and energy expenditure differences between controlled isocaloric diets varying in the ratio of carbohydrate to fat."
    Last edited by CJ275; 01-15-2020 at 08:05 PM.

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    Member I'mThatFitGuy's Avatar
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    Ok, tried to get everything in one shot to keep things going.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    Ok, let's start out with a high and tight fastball...
    Ok!! Love this quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    What would happen if one was to eat 10,000 calories of butter in a day? No carbs were eaten, so no insulin, so no fat gain? Do you think that would result in someone losing bodyfat?
    So, Iím going to answer this in a roundabout way, but work with me. And, Iím going to say that this person is eating this 10,000 of butter while in ketosis. I donít know all the specifics of the physiology, but I know that the body handles those fat calories differently if youíre burning primarily sugar instead of fat.

    So, over time, Iíve concluded that body fat loss, while in ketosis, happens primarily/only when the body needs fuel and there are no ingested fats available to satisfy this need. (Iím hesitant to say only because I donít care to know the minute details of all the physiology. There may be other circumstances where the body is burning body fat) The body then appropriates body fat and provides for the bodyís energy needs at that moment. So, on 10,000 calories of butter (fat) per day, can you get into that state where there arenít any ingested fats available? IDK. How fast can a body digest that much butter eaten in one meal, in the morning, process it into ketones bodies, use whatís needed in that time period, excrete some of those calories (we havenít gotten to this part yet. Itíll make more sense with more explanation, but you excrete unused ketone bodies. Basically piss out fat) and have energy needs that the butter canít provide for? Theoretically, I think maybe there could be fat loss, but I donít know in practice. And if so, it would be very slow. But, at lower calorie levels, maybe 3000 to 5000 calories per day, yeah there could/would be some fat loss. Now, weíre talking about one day, so tough to measure. Take out the fact that no protein would be really bad, if you did say 4000 calories of fat per day for a month, there would be fat loss. As I said before, without insulin in the mix, itís really hard to gain body fat and I'm confident that body fat would have to be appropriated at certain times.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    Point #2.
    Carbohydrate has to be converted to fat by the body before it can be stored as fat. But the dietary fat you eat IS ALREADY fat, no conversion necessary. Do you think the body would choose the harder of the two ways, that it'll burn dietary fat, but turn carbohydrate into fat to be stored as fat?
    So, its not a matter of taking the harder path to store the carbs as fat. Itís based on a limitation of the body's ability to utilize the carbs as energy based on insulinís limited action on the receptors due to their insensitivity. Assuming youíre not in ketosis before eating a meal, hereís what I believe takes place.

    You eat a meal of carbs and fat, say a half dozen donuts (I know ALL of you have done this!! LMAO) Iím joking. It could be any carb and any fat. Carbs come out of the stomach first and spike your glucose. Body releases insulin to clear glucose from the blood. Insulin sweeps water and glucose (I read 3/1 in someoneís post) into ALL your muscle cells (think organs, too, like your heart) to the extent that your sensitivity allows insulin to act. There, it eventually gets converted into ATP to provide the cell energy. Very simplified, but I believe accurate. Then, some gets stored in the liver. The rest of the glucose, if any, will be converted to fat.

    Fat comes out slower and will eventually be broken down into fatty acids. Essential fatty acids are used for all sorts of things in the body, so some will be allocated for those processes. The rest will be stored as fat.

    Then, with your glucose levels low again after itís all been swept out, you get sleepy, then hungry again. So, we eat another meal. The lower your insulin sensitivity, the more of the carbs you store as fat and the sooner youíre hungry again. Most people have no self control and eat LOTS of carbs. Do this for 30 years and then the receptors start to give up, for a pretty big portion of the population. I think I read there are 30+ million diagnosed diabetics. IDK the percentage of type 1ís, but I bet type 2ís dwarf them. In my opinion, there are reasons that sugar and flour are some of the cheapest things in the grocery store. And none of them are good!

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    Your quote..."Here's the opposite of your 10,000 calories of butter question. If I'm very insulin insensitive, what would happen if I ate just 2000 calories of carbs a day for a few months. I say you'd eventually starve to death if you're so insensitive that you can't convert half of those calories into energy. And, I don't think you'd die lean, either."

    Response: But you said earlier that carb consumption and the subsequent insulin response is what makes people fat. Now you're saying that they'll starve to death. Which is it?
    So, you may be able to figure out my answer from what Iíve previously written. Keep in mind, Iím saying an insulin insensitive person. Also, I said die of starvation, not hunger. You can eat and still ďstarveĒ over time if you donít have certain nutrients in the diet. Think essential aminos. Letís take out the bodyís protein requirement over the time period to simplify the example. Hereís what I think would happen.

    Carbs come out of the stomach and spike glucose. Body releases insulin to clear glucose from the blood. Letís say that Iím so insensitive that I can only utilize 500 of those calories for energy. Some to the liver, the rest gets stored as fat. I mean, thatís basically what weíre talking about with insulin sensitivity, how well does your body utilize glucose for energy vs. storing it as fat. So, on 2000 calories of carbs per day, not taking protein scavenging into account, Iím sure there would be some fat utilized for energy in certain circumstances, but the trend would be towards fat accumulation. At least until the stress of the starvation on the body starts to require more calories to deal with it. Then, I think maybe more fat would be utilized to make up for the deficit, changing the trend. And your metabolism would slow to conserve energy and your body would go into emergency survival mode due to the energy deficit you're experiencing. But, eventually youíd die. And Iíd think youíd die before all the fat would be utilized if you're still being force fed the 2000 calories as you near your end, but I couldnít say that with absolute certainty. Like I think you said in an earlier post, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted from one form to another. But, you also say that fat storage is based ONLY on calories consumed vs. calories utilized. So, if my body is physiologically limited in its ability to use carbs for energy, and all I eat is carbs, what do you think will happen with any carbs that I can't utilize for energy? Maybe converted to a different form of energy...like fat?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    QUOTE by you..."Think of early man. Living in a cold climate. Maybe like Eskimos. They weren't eating carbs. They, like carnivorous animals, ate other animals. Pretty hard to grow crops in a climate like that. But, they don't eat their meat like us. We eat the lean muscle. What do animals eat of their prey? The organs, typically. Higher fat content, more stored energy. Important, because food is scarce for them. Same with humans in cold climates. They eat meat and they eat and use ALL the fat from these animals. And, they do more than survive. The Eskimos chew something called Muktuk. It's whale blubber. That's how much fat is a part of their diet. Even in temperate climates, the growing season might be only a few months long. It's freezing here in the DC area right now. Pretty tough to grow crops. With no refrigeration, what did early man eat in the fall and winter? You guessed it. Protein and fat"

    Response: What about early ancestors who DIDN'T live in cold climates, that lived more toward the equator with plentiful vegetation for food year round. Where they fat? I don't think so. You're leaving out a giant portion of the world's population to fit your narrative.
    So, firstÖwhile there were early humans in tropical or other climates where vegetation was available year 'roud, would you say that it was more than ALL other early humans living in temperate or colder climates. Maybe very early man, but homo sapiens left Africa 90,000 years ago. Eventually they were everywhere. And although there have been examples of differences in evolution due to regional pressures (think how some cultures arenít lactose intolerant), I doubt highly that homo sapiens that left Africa were physiologically different from homo sapiens who eventually ended up in Alaska, or even us now. Both energy systems were there from the beginning. Perhaps, very early man was very insulin sensitive, which was lost as populations left those areas and faced harsher climates. Think about thisÖif food and shelter are limited, the LAST thing you want is to be very insulin sensitive and not be able to store fat. Youíd be more likely to die off. Perhaps, this was part of the mechanism that lowered insulin sensitivity in the population, over time. But, these days, itís by far the norm. Just look how prevalent Type 2 is. And, I think the number is way low because the bar for a diagnosis is so high. It's already 10+% of the population. And the latest commercials that I'm hearing are saying 1 in 3 people are "pre-diabetic". Nothing pre about it. I say 90+% eventually become full blown.

    So, firstÖwhile there were early humans in tropical or other climates where vegetation was available year round, would you say that there were more there than ALL other early humans living in temperate or colder climates. Maybe very early man, but homo sapiens left Africa 90,000 years ago. Eventually they were everywhere. And although there have been examples of differences in evolution due to regional pressures (think how some cultures arenít lactose intolerant), I doubt highly that homo sapiens that left Africa were physiologically different from homo sapiens who ended up in Alaska. Both energy systems were there from the beginning. Perhaps, very early man was very insulin sensitive, but this was lost as populations left those areas and faced harsher climates. Think about thisÖif food and shelter are limited, the LAST thing you want is to be very insulin sensitive and not be able to store fat. Youíd be more likely to die off. Perhaps, this was part of the mechanism that lower insulin sensitivity in the population, over time. More of them die that the insulin resistant ones, so they don't reproduce, those traits aren't passed on. But, these days, being insulin resistant is by far the norm. Look how many people are fat!

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    We can survive on any type of diet, our species is resilient. But for you to say that carbohydrate and insulin is to blame for obesity is just false.
    Yes, we can SURVIVE, for a time, on any diet. How long is determined by how well an individual can deal with the particular diet. Given a certain diet, some will do better than others. But, as you said earlier, I don't want to survive, I want to thrive. I believe a large part of our population is merely surviving on the diet we're told to eat, which is primarily grain based. Lots of flour, lots of HFCS. But, I completely disagree with your second statement. We just have different ideas about what's happening in the body.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    And I highly disagree with you that fat OR carbohydrate is the "primary" energy system. Ideally the body will move between the two on a spectrum, depending upon what activity is happening. That's called metabolic flexibility. If I'm running ftom a tiger who's about to maul me, you damn well better hope your body has the flexibility to burn some glycogen for fast fuel or else you're dead. Conversely, if you're out walking all day, you want the nice slower burning fat as the primary fuel source. You don't want to be glycogen dependant there either.
    While I do agree that some fat can be utilized for energy while not in ketosis, I donít believe our bodies are like a hybrid car that can switch completely from gas to electric at a moments notice. I believe youíre either burning primarily sugar or fat. Have you ever "bonked"? No, not that kind of bonking. If you're not familiar with the term, it's when you run out of glucose in the middle of a long distance event or workout of some sort, running, biking. I did short course triathlons in the mid '80's. Bonked a few times in training. No fun at all. Once, I could barely ride my bike back to the car to scrounge up enough change from the floor to buy a candy bar at the store where I'd parked! If we could switch back and forth as you seem to imply, bonking would never happen. Everyone's got some body fat.

    Some glucose is also utilized when in ketosis, but thatís not what the body is looking for first for energy. Itís looking for fat to burn first. And when on carbs, fat isnít the first choice. If you have carbs available, your bodyís burning primarily sugar, even on that long walk. I've read numerous times that the idea that there's a fat burning zone for your heart rate and it's 60-70% of your "max heart rate" (more BS!!) is a bunch of crap. I used to work in gyms in the mid '90's part-time, so I used to believe all this shit, too. It's simpler than that. The harder you work, the more calories you burn. But, if you're on carbs, you're burning primarily sugar and if you're in ketosis, you're burning primarily fat. The body has to be pressed into burning fat when burning sugar. In ketosis, youíre burning fat 24/7.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    A question for you, since protein also causes a subsequent insulin release, then why do you not restrict those as you do carbohydrate?
    Actually, because of gluconeogenesis, protein can be an issue, but Iíve rarely experience it. Eat too much and you get kicked out of ketosis. So, low carb diet is somewhat of a misnomer. Itís really a high fat, high protein, low carb diet. So, if you eat enough protein without enough fat, you can get kicked out for a few hours. But, itís really hard to do it.

    So, Iíve done pre and post-meal blood tests. My normal glucose level is like 80-90 whatever units Lol But, if I eat even a very keto, high fat meal, Iíll get a spike to 100-110. Blood ketones levels thru the roof. I found the rise in glucose very interesting. One of my former clients runs diabetic clinics for one of the hospital chains in Baltimore. She experienced the same thing.

  13. #20
    Member I'mThatFitGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transcend2007 View Post
    This reminds me of the vegetarian converts .. my new way is the best way .. which there is now science to back up vegan lifestyle is no healthier ... same with low carb ... intermittent fasting .. basically you are are selling something ...

    You look at Pro bodybuilders or Pro athletes at any very high level and the great majority are eating a health - well balanced diet low in sugar but not low carbs overall ...

    Again if it works for you and allows you a successful business .. great .. but overall as snake said sustainability trumps everything ... doing something for a year or 5 years is great ... what about doing it for 80 years which is what a healthy lifestyle in all about .... I don't need the latest fad ... I'll take a sensible higher protein diet similar to the Zone for life.
    Hardly the case. And I've been doing low carbs for almost 20 years. You didn't read my posts. Read ALL of my posts, in all the sections, then comment. Hard to make intelligent comments if you come into the conversation at the end. Actually, CJ275 invited me to debate him on the topic. I USED to diet coach. I still help friends who ask me to guide them. I offer help to people who've been fat all their lives and have no idea what to do because they've tried what their trainers told them to do AND NOTHING HAPPENED. So, they blame themselves, not the trainer and the info they got. I could give a shit about what you all do as far as diet. I just like helping fat people lose weight cuz it's not always their fault. They've just been lied to about how to eat.

    And you mention elite athletes. I know for a fact that Ben Rothlesburger went keto. That's how he dropped so much weight. As with elite BB's, the vast majority of elite athletes also have elite genetics, including insulin sensitivity. However, this showed up first in a Google search of "keto atheletes".

    LeBron James lost weight on the keto diet.
    The keto-style diet helped the NBA superstar lose a " ton of weight" in 2014. The keto diet can be a great way to get in shape, but should always be done under the supervision of a medical professional.
    Jul 16, 2018

  14. #21
    Member I'mThatFitGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    Also curious as to your thoughts on active people, who need large amounts of carbohydrate to support highly glycolytic exercise. Are they insulin resistant too and on their way to obesity and/or type 2 diabetes, or is their insulin sensitivity actually high because their body is using the carbohydrate efficiently for fuel?
    Yes, while very active people can delay the onset of type 2 due to their high levels of activity, it doesn't seem to prevent anything. Read about Dr. Timothy Nokes and his and his dad's history with type 2. Nokes is an ultramarathoner, but still developed type 2, then went keto because he read an article by peers that he highly respected. A quote from one of his articles that I read once, "I learned more about human physiology in my first year of being keto than in 40 years of being an MD."

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    Member I'mThatFitGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    Quick article outlining a meta analysis of calorie and protein equated, high carb low fat vs low carb high fat diets...

    https://www.stephanguyenet.com/meta-...-body-fatness/

    And a link to the actual study for a deeper dive...

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5568065/

    Quote from the study.. "These results are in the opposite direction to the predictions of the carbohydrate-insulin model, but the effect sizes are so small as to be physiologically meaningless. In other words, for all practical purposes “a calorie is a calorie” when it comes to body fat and energy expenditure differences between controlled isocaloric diets varying in the ratio of carbohydrate to fat."
    So, I read thru the article and part of the abstract. Nowhere did I see any macro breakdown. What I talk about is low carbs where the body reaches a state of ketosis. Otherwise, subbing fat for carbs is almost meaningless. Then, a calorie basically is a calorie.

    I also read this in the abstract.

    Obesity is often described as a disorder of energy balance arising from consuming calories in excess to the energy expended to maintain life and perform physical work. While this energy balance concept is a useful framework for investigating obesity, it does not provide a causal explanation for why some people have obesity or what to do about it.

    In particular, obesity prevention is often erroneously portrayed as a simple matter of bookkeeping whereby calorie intake must be balanced by calorie expenditure.1 Under this “calories in, calories out” model, treating obesity amounts to advising people to simply eat less and move more, thereby tipping the scales of calorie balance and resulting in steady weight loss that accumulates according to the widely known, but erroneous, 3500 kcal per pound rule.2,3 Therefore, failure to experience substantial weight loss implies that an individual lacks the willpower to adhere to a modest lifestyle intervention over a sufficient period of time.

    However, this naÔve view is incorrect because it considers energy intake and expenditure to be independent parameters that can be adjusted at will and thereafter remain static without being influenced by homeostatic signals related to weight loss.3 We now understand that energy intake and expenditure are interdependent variables that are dynamically influenced by each other and body weight.4 Attempts to alter energy balance through diet or exercise are countered by physiological adaptations that resist weight loss.5
    Last edited by I'mThatFitGuy; 01-16-2020 at 02:16 AM.

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    Moderator-San Jin's Avatar
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    I have a reminder set for this weekend and 2 hours set aside. Once I actually read this thread maybe I can contribute something.

    Not I was.
    Not I will be.
    I AM.


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    Member I'mThatFitGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by transcend2007 View Post
    This reminds me of the vegetarian converts .. my new way is the best way .. which there is now science to back up vegan lifestyle is no healthier ... same with low carb ... intermittent fasting .. basically you are are selling something ...

    You look at Pro bodybuilders or Pro athletes at any very high level and the great majority are eating a health - well balanced diet low in sugar but not low carbs overall ...

    Again if it works for you and allows you a successful business .. great .. but overall as snake said sustainability trumps everything ... doing something for a year or 5 years is great ... what about doing it for 80 years which is what a healthy lifestyle in all about .... I don't need the latest fad ... I'll take a sensible higher protein diet similar to the Zone for life.
    In fact, if people are just going to be assholes because of the thread because it threatens their belief system and they can't be that open minded about anything that does, just delete it and I'll end the discussion now. I'm doing this to spread, what I believe to be, very good information. If you're not interested, but still wanna feed me shit about it, then You're the one with the issue. And, I don't need your shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by transcend2007 View Post
    You look at Pro bodybuilders or Pro athletes at any very high level and the great majority are eating a health - well balanced diet low in sugar but not low carbs overall ...

    Again if it works for you and allows you a successful business .. great .. but overall as snake said sustainability trumps everything ... doing something for a year or 5 years is great ... what about doing it for 80 years which is what a healthy lifestyle in all about .... I don't need the latest fad ... I'll take a sensible higher protein diet similar to the Zone for life.
    IDK, but from where I'm sitting, it's you who thinks you know the best way. As I said in a post you obviously didn't read, "Look, I'm not trying to convert anyone. You do you, I'll do me." You can do whatever you want to.

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