A Primer for those considering HRT

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Cashout, I just read this for the first time and I'm going to give your 50 mg every 84 hour protocol a shot. Honestly, I've been telling my wife that's what I want to start doing, but your post confirmed that it's in fact what I'm going to start this week. I was doing 1 shot of 100 mg per week per docs orders, but it has caused swollen and sore nips. I'm very sensitive to E2 and get it every cycle, but I can't stand to have this for the rest of the time I'm on TRT especially seeing how it could be the rest of my life. Hopefully this makes all the difference as it did for you. I'm with you in the fact that people use far too much AAS. I feel that they should use as little as they can as long as they are seeing results. Too much of a good thing is just that. Everyone always thinks more is better and don't realize it wasn't until it's too late. Anyhow, thanks for this post bro. I'm sick of taking Adex EOD and Nolva ED to get this issue in check.

You were taking ADEX eod at 100mgT/wk? Crazy. Was it .25mg or .5mg eod? What were your E levels with that protocol?
 
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Hi Cashout, can I ask what your thoughts are on two forms of trt.. Reandron 1000 which Im thinking of going on.. Injected once every 10 weeks give or take..
And 40mg of Andriol Testocaps which I have been on for the last few years..

Any thoughts please?
 
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To any one reading this thread, I absolutely love cashout's post, but I think he is missing something.. Like most he talks about injecting, (cypionate) ? twice a week?
Better options are available now.
With the oral testosterone (andriol testo caps 40 mg) you get no pituitary gland shut down and for those who hate injecting it makes life easier.. Pop a couple of pills a day and your done.. They work like a dream as I have been on them for years and no need for any other meds with them.

The other option I have heard a lot of good things about is reandron 1000 which you inject once every 7 to 12 weeks dependant on the individual taking them..

So another couple of options for you guys.. You don't have to be stuck with injecting twice a week.
 

DocDePanda187123

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To any one reading this thread, I absolutely love cashout's post, but I think he is missing something.. Like most he talks about injecting, (cypionate) ? twice a week?
Better options are available now.
With the oral testosterone (andriol testo caps 40 mg) you get no pituitary gland shut down and for those who hate injecting it makes life easier.. Pop a couple of pills a day and your done.. They work like a dream as I have been on them for years and no need for any other meds with them.

The other option I have heard a lot of good things about is reandron 1000 which you inject once every 7 to 12 weeks dependant on the individual taking them..

So another couple of options for you guys.. You don't have to be stuck with injecting twice a week.

Pituitary shutdown is secondary to hypothalamic shutdown. The lack of GNrH from the hypothalamus to the pituitary is what causes it to stop producing LH and FSH. This is NOT avoidable simply by using andriol testocaps. You will still be shutdown using them at relevant doses. They also may still require the use of an AI but that depends in the individual. I certainly wouldn't call them a better option.
 

Iron1

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Pituitary shutdown is secondary to hypothalamic shutdown. The lack of GNrH from the hypothalamus to the pituitary is what causes it to stop producing LH and FSH. This is NOT avoidable simply by using andriol testocaps. You will still be shutdown using them at relevant doses. They also may still require the use of an AI but that depends in the individual. I certainly wouldn't call them a better option.


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Hi Doc, then can you explain why on testocaps, I have absolutey no nut shrinkage? Still shoot a good load. When I was on injecatables, instant nut shrinkage..
Infact I read an article that stated the reason for this was your pituitary gland wasn't shut down on orals.. Will see if I can dig it up again for you..
 

DocDePanda187123

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Hi Doc, then can you explain why on testocaps, I have absolutey no nut shrinkage? Still shoot a good load. When I was on injecatables, instant nut shrinkage..
Infact I read an article that stated the reason for this was your pituitary gland wasn't shut down on orals.. Will see if I can dig it up again for you..

We know all exogenous steroids will suppress natural production. That is a basic truth of every available anabolic androgenic. Teaticular atrophy is a side effect of suppression. Some ppl never experience the atrophy while others expereince it to a large degree. That's one reason and the other is bc absorption of oral testosterone like andriol is much lower than injectable preparations. If you took 100mg of each, the injectable test would be much more readily absorbed so at similar doses you'd potentially expereince increased testicular atrophy. Andriol boosts test levels which will also increase aromatization which by itself would further limit natural testoaterone production. Your pituitary is not shutdown directly. It's a downstream effect bc when taking exogenous test like andriol it will ultimately inhibit the hypothalamus from producing GNrH which acts upon the pituitary. So pituitary shutdown is secondary to the hypothalamus.

If you've got the article please post it. I'd love to see it. And please don't let it be an article written by Joe Schmoe who has a column for Flex magazine or something. A published and peer reviewed study would be nice or something from Merck themselves.
 
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hmm, looked and looked, cant find the article.. mind you it was a few years ago.. wish I had of saved it now.. Oh well..
Cant seem to find any other info on it either so perhaps I must concede to your posts.. Im not silly enough to try to debate with some one who is obviously more knowledgeable than I lol... cheers Doc.
 

DocDePanda187123

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hmm, looked and looked, cant find the article.. mind you it was a few years ago.. wish I had of saved it now.. Oh well..
Cant seem to find any other info on it either so perhaps I must concede to your posts.. Im not silly enough to try to debate with some one who is obviously more knowledgeable than I lol... cheers Doc.

Don't make an appeal to authority brother. I've been wrong in the past and will continue to be in the future. No one is right 100% of the time. The forum is to discuss things so don't hesitate to do just that.
 

mickems

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Thanks for this post CASHOUT. I have been considering trt lately (I am fairly new to bb but older in yrs) and this was a very helpful read.
 
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We know all exogenous steroids will suppress natural production. That is a basic truth of every available anabolic androgenic. Teaticular atrophy is a side effect of suppression. Some ppl never experience the atrophy while others expereince it to a large degree. That's one reason and the other is bc absorption of oral testosterone like andriol is much lower than injectable preparations. If you took 100mg of each, the injectable test would be much more readily absorbed so at similar doses you'd potentially expereince increased testicular atrophy. Andriol boosts test levels which will also increase aromatization which by itself would further limit natural testoaterone production. Your pituitary is not shutdown directly. It's a downstream effect bc when taking exogenous test like andriol it will ultimately inhibit the hypothalamus from producing GNrH which acts upon the pituitary. So pituitary shutdown is secondary to the hypothalamus.

If you've got the article please post it. I'd love to see it. And please don't let it be an article written by Joe Schmoe who has a column for Flex magazine or something. A published and peer reviewed study would be nice or something from Merck themselves.

You might learn something new today..
Taking of andriol does not shut down the pituitary gland.

I have been on andriol for about 3 years with no nut shrinkage..
I went on sustanon 250 inject during that time and nuts immediately shrivled.
Didn't like sustanon and went back on Andriol.. Nuts swelled back to normal size..
I was taking very high doses of Andriol.. 7 x 40mg caps.. At no stage did I have nut shrinkage..



Decided to drop the dosage down to recommended dosage of 2 x 40mg caps per day..
After a year give or take on this regime I went to an endocrinologist to get his thoughts on what I was doing.
He told me to stop taking it..

I refused on the basis I didn't want to experience the down time, depression etc that comes of having no test in my system..

He ran blood tests which showed my pituitary gland was still functiong.. Good levels of FSH and LH.

So I stopped cold turkey.. Didn't even notice the difference...

So taking Andriol caps do not shut down the pituitary gland.
 

DocDePanda187123

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You might learn something new today..
Taking of andriol does not shut down the pituitary gland.

I have been on andriol for about 3 years with no nut shrinkage..
I went on sustanon 250 inject during that time and nuts immediately shrivled.
Didn't like sustanon and went back on Andriol.. Nuts swelled back to normal size..
I was taking very high doses of Andriol.. 7 x 40mg caps.. At no stage did I have nut shrinkage..



Decided to drop the dosage down to recommended dosage of 2 x 40mg caps per day..
After a year give or take on this regime I went to an endocrinologist to get his thoughts on what I was doing.
He told me to stop taking it..

I refused on the basis I didn't want to experience the down time, depression etc that comes of having no test in my system..

He ran blood tests which showed my pituitary gland was still functiong.. Good levels of FSH and LH.

So I stopped cold turkey.. Didn't even notice the difference...

So taking Andriol caps do not shut down the pituitary gland.

You might learn something new today.....

You have not proved anything just made simple and unquantifiable observations and claims.

Not everybody experiences testicular atrophy even on blasts. Testicular atrophy is a poor measure of pituitary function as even on a gram of test my nuts remained the same size while blood tests showed LH and FSH to be tanked. According to you this would mean I wasnt shutdown which is preposterous since blood tests confirmed I in fact was.

You took 7-40mg caps a day which is 280mg total. Consider the bioavailability of andriol is about 7% meaning that much of your 280mg was actual absorbed and could act on site specific locations or become active in target tissue.

William Llewellyn; Anabolics 10th Ed. said:
“The actual oral bioavailability of Andriol is estimated to be approximately 7%.”

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.


“A more common effective dosage, however, would fall in the range of 400-480 mg (10 to 12 capsules) per day. These doses can be quite costly given the relative price of Andriol preparations, making injectable testosterones much more cost effective and popular. Given the relative low potency of Andriol, when taken by athletes it is most commonly used in combination with other agents.”

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

“Andriol Testocaps supplies 40 mg of testosterone undecanoate in castor oil and propylene glycol monolaurate, contained in small soft gelatin capsules. Packaging is commonly as bottles of 30 or 60 capsules, or foil/plastic strips of 10 capsules. Subtracting the ester weight, each 40 mg Andriol capsule contains 25.3mg of (base) testosterone.”

Excerpt From: Llewellyn, William. “Anabolics.” iBooks.

When all is said and done you were on less than a TRT dose of hormones when factoring in bioavailability at the 2caps a day period and it's no wonder your pituitary wasn't fully shut down, but you can bet it was certainly suppressed to some degree. Had you taken enough to constitute a real blast there's no question you would be shutdown.

So taking andriol will suppress the pituitary gland just like all other forms of exogenous anabolic/androgenic hormones and if taken in large enough amounts will shutdown the pituitary.

Ps. You still haven't linked any study or scientific article backing your claim, you link and article from anabolic-supplement.com which we all know is a credible source of information :rolleyes:, you did not provide a copy of the bloodwork you claimed to have, you took a TRT dose and a dose much less than TRT levels and claimed you made reasonable gains off that which could be true bc you were hypogonadal or a novice but can't be expected to have the same results in advanced lifters or those who are eugonadal, and you had claimed that no orals can shutdown pituitary function which is ridiculous at best. I don't know where your info is coming from but I wouldn't put any stock in your sources.
 
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That's a great post! Very different from what I've seen in years past and seems safer.
 

Tren4Life

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Cashout was a smart fukker. I wish he was still around.
 
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Agreed! This is still a great post. Some fantastic info in here. Where's our #BringBackCashout hashtag? ;P Anyways, great stuff. Especially for someone currently on the fence about how I'm going to tackle this. As for my own contribution, there isn't too much that hasn't been said already. I've been reading up on the odd post here and there. This one on trt sticks out as not being too bad. Covers some stuff I hadn't considered yet. But yeah, where's Cashout when you need him. Can't like this post enough.
 

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