I used to be able to push my arms out of the socket from the top, now they don't budge. On shoulder day they do hurt internally due to my labrums having been destroyed but I push to the limit. I work shoulders until what I call "real pain" starts. I do legs, back, chest, arms, and shoulders all in individual workouts. I would add shoulders in with arms but due to the issues I neet to focus on them separately.