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  1. #1
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    Changing program from old faithful to self made feedback wanted

    New member here I have been doing a personalized version of PH3 since April or so. With Covid it hasn't been ideal for my squat or deadlift since I won't do that at home but I did keep up my bench press so my before and after is squat 335 to 385 bench 265 to 355 deadlift 385 to 445. I took up arm wrestling when the arm bet app came out so I'm adding in arm wrestling practice 2 times a week one easier and one harder as well as mild accessories everyday. Anyway the new routine is 6 days a week ABABAB style with less volume to counteract the increased frequency. I'm doing this to try and keep a more even level of fatigue so that I can incorporate my arm wrestling in. A is bench, deadlift, lower body accessories and very mild arm wrestling exercise. B is Overhead press, squat, upper body accessories and mild arm wrestling exercises. The volume I'm doing each day I'm keeping pretty low and sometimes I leave the gym early if I'm not feeling good. Everything I do is 2 or 3 sets based on feel. I do waves for reps so 8,6,5,4,3 or 9,7,6,5,3 or whatever random lower number I feel like doing until resetting to a higher number. I use a percentage based off my max or previous lift experience to determine weight for PL movements and accessory work I pick a weight and the reps for that I just keep in the 5-10 range based on how heavy it is for me. What are you guys thoughts on the high frequency low volume and areas of concern or improvement that you can think of?

  2. #2
    Moderator BrotherIron's Avatar
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    Accumulated muscular and neural fatigue is my concern... You going to squat and deadlift 3x a week? This won't last long.
    There are 2 kinds of pain in life... The pain of discipline and the pain of regret. Your choice...

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    Elite CJ275's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BrotherIron View Post
    Accumulated muscular and neural fatigue is my concern... You going to squat and deadlift 3x a week? This won't last long.
    I think I agree with this.

    You say only 2-3 working sets per exercise, but when you factor in all the warmup sets you'll be doing, I think you might be better off doing less days of Squats/DLs, but just a little more work on those days.

    Fatigue will build from warmup sets too, so I'm of the opinion that maybe the same number of weekly work sets but less warmup sets, couple with an extra day off from those exercises, could give you a better stimulus to fatigue ratio. Doing Squats or DLs every single workout might be overkill, especially when you add in the other training you do.

    You'll know soon enough though, either you'll wear yourself out, or your progress will stagnate.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Sicwun88's Avatar
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    3xs a week is definitely too much,
    Especially if you're training intense which should be done in any exercise!

  5. #5
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    Makes sense so I'm going to cut out squat on Tuesday and deadlift on Friday. Bench 3 times a week has been good to me so I'm keeping that.

  6. #6
    Senior Member dreamscraper's Avatar
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    As a stupid example, anyone could squat and deadlift the empty bar everyday so it is not the frequency but the frequency of intensity that is the problem.

    Pavel Tsatsouline on Joe Rogan got pretty deep into Soviet weightlifting ideas and it is just interesting how no one does what he was talking about. 75% for 3 as an example. If you do 4 or 5 sets it doesn't even feel like you have done anything. There is no adrenaline needed but I think that is actually the point.
    You can do that 3 or 4 times a week no problem. Maybe even 5.

    As a total absurd example imagine two programs
    a. 10 sets of 96-99% singles twice a week.
    b. 4 sets of 75% for 3, 4 times a week

    Program A would feel astronomically harder to do than program B. You are actually though doing 40% more volume with B even if only 3 times a week.

    I think we probably make this mistake all the time. People want the program to feel like program A even if you are not doing as much actual work as program B.

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    Elite CJ275's Avatar
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    Let's make it apples to apples, would you rather see:

    A) 6 days of Squats/Deads for 3 sets
    B) 3 days of Squats/Deads for 6 sets
    Volume of work sets is equal

    With A, you'll have more TOTAL volume, because some warmup sets before the work sets are heavy enough to cause fatigue, without much benefit. I'd argue your systemic fatigue will rise more quickly because of that, and performing the lifts day after day.

    With B, less systemic fatigue because you're giving your body a break from Squats/DLs while still getting in the same amount of work.

    Even when I was Weightlifting, we only squatted 3-4 times per week, max. It was like 3x5 BS on 2 days and 3x3 FS on 2 days. We didn't DL, but we did Pulls, but they were submax, performed for speed and technique, like 3x3. There were 3 days to recover from that, and even that wasn't crazy volume.

  8. #8
    Senior Member dreamscraper's Avatar
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    Ok, I thought about this quite awhile and would systemic fatigue just be equal in what you posted?
    Like some movement with a 100lb PR.
    You do 3 sets of of 70lbs for 1, 6 days a week
    You do 6 sets of of 70lbs for 1, 3 days a week

    I am not sure how systemic fatigue could be measured besides perceived something but it would seem pretty close?


    Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    Let's make it apples to apples, would you rather see:
    A) 6 days of Squats/Deads for 3 sets
    B) 3 days of Squats/Deads for 6 sets
    Volume of work sets is equal

    With A, you'll have more TOTAL volume, because some warmup sets before the work sets are heavy enough to cause fatigue, without much benefit. I'd argue your systemic fatigue will rise more quickly because of that, and performing the lifts day after day.

    With B, less systemic fatigue because you're giving your body a break from Squats/DLs while still getting in the same amount of work.

    Even when I was Weightlifting, we only squatted 3-4 times per week, max. It was like 3x5 BS on 2 days and 3x3 FS on 2 days. We didn't DL, but we did Pulls, but they were submax, performed for speed and technique, like 3x3. There were 3 days to recover from that, and even that wasn't crazy volume.
    You canít not squat.

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    Originally Posted by dreamscraper View Post
    Ok, I thought about this quite awhile and would systemic fatigue just be equal in what you posted?
    Like some movement with a 100lb PR.
    You do 3 sets of of 70lbs for 1, 6 days a week
    You do 6 sets of of 70lbs for 1, 3 days a week

    I am not sure how systemic fatigue could be measured besides perceived something but it would seem pretty close?
    I don't know, because you're doing warmup sets 6x per week, vs 3x per week. It all adds up.

    Plus, you're not giving the body a rest, I see it as sort of like you keep picking the scab instead of letting a wound heal.

    It's all hypothetical though. I could be wrong.

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    My warm up sets are very light so I don't think they negatively affect me. My last warmup set is only around 50% of my max the others obviously even lighter and I do at most 4 sets ramping up so the 4th set would be 50% like 45 95 135 185 for bench then do my working sets say 285 for 3 sets of 5 just an example from last week. Also my warm up sets are at most 5 reps

  11. #11
    Senior Member ATLRigger's Avatar
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    What do you do in weightlifting practice ?

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    Elite CJ275's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ATLRigger View Post
    What do you do in weightlifting practice ?
    Were you asking me?

  13. #13
    Senior Member dreamscraper's Avatar
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    I think you have to isolate warm up volume from the program though. Go ride the bike for 15 min instead. The real problem though is how do we know anything really? I assume pushing volume up over time makes a person stronger but what proof is there of that?
    I read a study that had 33 people tracked for 2 weeks. That is just not a good dataset. There is even risk that dataset is worse than nothing.



    Originally Posted by CJ275 View Post
    I don't know, because you're doing warmup sets 6x per week, vs 3x per week. It all adds up.

    Plus, you're not giving the body a rest, I see it as sort of like you keep picking the scab instead of letting a wound heal.

    It's all hypothetical though. I could be wrong.

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    Alright so far my results have been a burnout. The problem is me though so I don't know if this is too much or not by itself. I also arm wrestle on top of wanting to improve my powerlifting numbers. My elbows just can't keep up with benching 3 times a week overhead pressing 3 times a week doing accessory work and 1 or 2 arm wrestling practices. Also my squat and deadlift aren't doing that hot either as I'm not getting enough rest in between days to do a more serious weight. So I'm not responding to this well. My new plan is to start a new training cycle of PH3 next Monday after Thanksgiving and just do a full body accessory workout Wednesday and then rest during Thanksgiving and do another accessory workout Saturday.

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    In my opinion, you're going about this backwards.

    What you're doing is loading yourself up with volume, to see if you can handle it. If you can't, you're going down.

    What I would recommend is to start with LOWER volume, and if all goes well recovery and progress wise, then add a little bit.

    Maybe try a Wendler's 531, and go from there. It's easier to go up than down. I ran it alongside crossfit training many times, the volume was perfect(and could be tailored) in addition to the other stuff I was doing. I also tried other programs that had much more going on, Hatch is one I remember specifically not going well.

    And you know how Layne Norton is. If you asked him if he thought it was cool to do all the extras you want to do alongside his standalone program, he'd call you a dumbass. That you can't keep piling shit up, because then you're left with a big pile of shit.
    Last edited by CJ275; 11-25-2020 at 06:36 AM.

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  17. #16
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    Yeah I see what you're saying. PH3 has worked very well for me in the past so it's just easy for me to stick to what works and that I like.. As far as arm wrestling goes I'm thinking one practice a week going forward. I can definitely handle one or the other but both is rough so I'm going to compromise them a little to take some of the stress out. It's hard for me to go back to low volume since doing stuff 2 to 3 times a week is when I see a lot of progress but I have no choice.

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