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    Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    So lately I have seen more than a couple failed kick offs. Not necessarily on this forum but this is where I am calling home so this is where I will post this. Mostly there seems to be a confusion about half lives. So I figure I will share some medical knowledge to help out the brothers here.

    Half lives:
    Every drug has a half-life. Half-life is the amount of time it will take for your body to use half of the drug. The other half still remains in your body. So if you have a drug with a seven day half-life and you take 250mgs of it, your body will use 125mgs in 7 days then you have another 125mgs left in your body. Your body will use half of that, 62.5, over the next seven days, leaving 62.5... and so on and so on. This continues until there is nothing left of the drug, and this can actually take a very long time. Which is why even though the half life may only be seven days the detection time may be much, much longer, but I will explain that below. This all leads to why people say you wont notice a test e cycle of 500mgs a week until week 5, as its during week 4 when your levels finally level/max out, this can be seen in the chart below. This also is the cause for shorter esters to kick in faster. The example of test prop, which has a 3 day half-life, will actually level/max out around day 15, also shown below. On each day, add together the amount of each line to give you the total amount in your system.

    Kickoff:
    So knowing what we know now we can see that even if we were to inject much more of the total amount of each drug into out system, the amounts could be lower than they would be somewhere later into our cycle. Meaning that you can inject 500mgs of test e a week into your system along with 350 of test prop a week and still not hit any extreme levels. This is actually how a proper kick off should be done, as it will allow your system to build up the proper amount by day 14 instead of day 30. This is shown in the chart below. The grey line indicates the total amount of test in your system.


    Detection times:
    Some drugs are also easier to detect than others. This is why nandrolone deconate has such a longer detection that test deconate. The esters are the same, but even though after a year maybe only .02mgs of each may be present, the nandrolone is the only one that is detectable. This is primarily due to nandrolone being a unnatural substance.

    Active-life:
    Forget this term, it will confuse you.

    Prop chart: 150mgs eod, figured with a 3 day half-life

    Enth chart: 250mgs every 3-4days, figured with a 7 day half-life, even though some say it may be as long as 10 days.

    Kickoff chart: it may look confuseing but it is test prop injected 100mgs eod and test e at 250mgs every 3-4 days. The grey line at the topis the total amount in your system.

    I have tried to explain this as simple as I can, I hope this helps someone!

    T

    other charts in next posts
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Prop

    kickoff

    Sorry I had to link it. Apparently otherwise I was going over my limit

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Good post.... what you refer to as "kickoff" I think most people know as a "frontload"

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Originally Posted by Get Some View Post
    Good post.... what you refer to as "kickoff" I think most people know as a "frontload"
    Thanks.

    I debated on that but in my head a "frontload" is just injecting more of the same ester for the first few weeks and tapering down.

    Either way I think people will get it.

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Wait, so maybe I don't get what you mean by "kickoff" lol. In a frontload you can inject double the amount in the first 2 injections only and be able to maintain higher levels quicker and longer than you would if you just started with the lower amount all the way through. Does "kickoff" involve adding test prop to a test E cycle?

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    Elite PillarofBalance's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Get Some View Post
    Wait, so maybe I don't get what you mean by "kickoff" lol. In a frontload you can inject double the amount in the first 2 injections only and be able to maintain higher levels quicker and longer than you would if you just started with the lower amount all the way through. Does "kickoff" involve adding test prop to a test E cycle?
    Adding test prop is a test prop kick start...

    You and I have a different understanding of a front load though. I always thought a front load would be done by taking the weeks dose in dose 1, then continuing as normal. 2 ways to skin a baby? Or am I confused
    "Overzealous dosing" -Jin

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    yes, you can do it EITHER way, it's just more effective to take the week's dose TWICE in that first week. And as far as test prop as a kick start, I have that solved.... it's called dbol, lol.

    Originally Posted by PillarofBalance View Post
    Adding test prop is a test prop kick start...

    You and I have a different understanding of a front load though. I always thought a front load would be done by taking the weeks dose in dose 1, then continuing as normal. 2 ways to skin a baby? Or am I confused

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Ya I meant it as using a short ester in the beginning, even just for the first few weeks to get levels higher quicker.

    Mostly I saw some people use prop for three weeks then SWITCH to E... which will screw things up pretty good!

    Maybe Ill edit to include what your talking about.

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    frontloading is something many more guys would know of.

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Originally Posted by PillarofBalance View Post

    You and I have a different understanding of a front load though. I always thought a front load would be done by taking the weeks dose in dose 1, then continuing as normal. 2 ways to skin a baby? Or am I confused
    This can be done and will elevate levels slightly quicker but not all the way.

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Ah yes, I was telling someone about this the other day and how not starting with a long ester from the beginning makes no sense. Switching to it later just delays getting your levels up. I see what you did there!

    Originally Posted by 0tj0 View Post
    Ya I meant it as using a short ester in the beginning, even just for the first few weeks to get levels higher quicker.

    Mostly I saw some people use prop for three weeks then SWITCH to E... which will screw things up pretty good!

    Maybe Ill edit to include what your talking about.

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    Originally Posted by 0tj0 View Post
    Ya I meant it as using a short ester in the beginning, even just for the first few weeks to get levels higher quicker.

    Mostly I saw some people use prop for three weeks then SWITCH to E... which will screw things up pretty good!

    Maybe Ill edit to include what your talking about.
    Yeah now we're clear.. That would definitely be dumb.
    "Overzealous dosing" -Jin

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    From everything I've heard from vets is that front-loading sucks... gains don't come much quicker but sides do as well as stalling gains..

    From my understanding (which is vague at best) the problem with long esters is that although once levels are built up injections every 3-4days may provide stable levels BUT in the beginning this is not the case. This is because we pin lets say 300mg of test-e, this will reach a lower peak compared to 300mg of prop but the test-e will be sustained longer (obvious I know)

    Now lets say that you are injecting 700mg/week (100mg of Prop/day OR 300mg of Enanthate E3D). So the difference as I see it is that the test-e will reach a peak close to that of the prop within 48hrs but before the next pin will drop below the level that the ED Prop inject would be providing. SO WTF AM I GETTING AT???

    What I've been kicking around is that longer ester like enanthate should be treated like an ACE or PROP ester for the first week or so for a more immediate response. I've been thinking about a dosing protocol (have not finalized it) like this:


    Test-E Cycle @700mg/week

    Week 1- Day 1 300mg (normal dose if injecting E3D)
    Week 1- Day 2-7 100mg/day (Normal dose if injecting ED)
    Week 2- Day 1-7 200mg EOD (Normal dose if injecting EOD)
    Week 3- Day 1-7 300mg E3D (Normal dose if injecting E3D)

    Continue pinning 300mg E3D for the rest of the cycle. For this layout you start like a normal E3D pin/dose schedule for the initial dose to get a decent peak level going with the Enan, then you pin ED as if it was prop, 2week pin EOD, and 3rd week continue as a normal E3D schedule.

    I don't consider this a "front load" because you are only getting 900mg total the first week instead of 700. The goal is not to explode up to peak levels but rather take little steps everyday to obtain stable peak levels sooner as it does not allow days between injections for the test-e to fall back towards baseline. Should also help with sides and stalling out that are usually associated with typical front loading.

    I will be trying this method out on my next cycle.
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  14. #14
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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    POB should be able to tell you why this is a bad idea, lol

    Treating a longer ester like a short one will not help you at all. Longer esters usually translate into better gains in the long run because the further you space out the injections the higher the peaks you can achieve. Why is that? Well, it's simply based on the fact that injections that are further spaced out are of higher volume. With 1000mg EW on an EOD basis, you would never catch up to the levels that 500mg twice weekly would bring you.

    As far as "taking little steps everyday" that is known as pyramiding (or at least the first part of it). This is how things used to be done back in the day, but now we realize that this is just not necessary. "Stable levels" are actually easier to maintain with long esters than you might think. A stable level is still a wide range. Unstable would be injecting an acetate ester once weekly. In other words it would have to be a traumatic rise and fall. And the side effects that could be attributed to unstable levels certainly would not be present with normal twice weekly injections of a longer ester. So, as you can see, your plan only HINDERS getting you to desired levels in a timely manner and you really won't be avoiding any side effects.

    Frontloading really does work if you do it correctly. As POB was saying earlier, all you really need to do is get the first dose higher. In the article below, Bill Roberts explains frontloading in its simplest form:

    http://thinksteroids.com/articles/fr...ding-steroids/

    Originally Posted by mlupi319 View Post
    From everything I've heard from vets is that front-loading sucks... gains don't come much quicker but sides do as well as stalling gains..

    From my understanding (which is vague at best) the problem with long esters is that although once levels are built up injections every 3-4days may provide stable levels BUT in the beginning this is not the case. This is because we pin lets say 300mg of test-e, this will reach a lower peak compared to 300mg of prop but the test-e will be sustained longer (obvious I know)

    Now lets say that you are injecting 700mg/week (100mg of Prop/day OR 300mg of Enanthate E3D). So the difference as I see it is that the test-e will reach a peak close to that of the prop within 48hrs but before the next pin will drop below the level that the ED Prop inject would be providing. SO WTF AM I GETTING AT???

    What I've been kicking around is that longer ester like enanthate should be treated like an ACE or PROP ester for the first week or so for a more immediate response. I've been thinking about a dosing protocol (have not finalized it) like this:


    Test-E Cycle @700mg/week

    Week 1- Day 1 300mg (normal dose if injecting E3D)
    Week 1- Day 2-7 100mg/day (Normal dose if injecting ED)
    Week 2- Day 1-7 200mg EOD (Normal dose if injecting EOD)
    Week 3- Day 1-7 300mg E3D (Normal dose if injecting E3D)

    Continue pinning 300mg E3D for the rest of the cycle. For this layout you start like a normal E3D pin/dose schedule for the initial dose to get a decent peak level going with the Enan, then you pin ED as if it was prop, 2week pin EOD, and 3rd week continue as a normal E3D schedule.

    I don't consider this a "front load" because you are only getting 900mg total the first week instead of 700. The goal is not to explode up to peak levels but rather take little steps everyday to obtain stable peak levels sooner as it does not allow days between injections for the test-e to fall back towards baseline. Should also help with sides and stalling out that are usually associated with typical front loading.

    I will be trying this method out on my next cycle.

  15. #15
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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Originally Posted by mlupi319 View Post
    From everything I've heard from vets is that front-loading sucks... gains don't come much quicker but sides do as well as stalling gains..

    From my understanding (which is vague at best) the problem with long esters is that although once levels are built up injections every 3-4days may provide stable levels BUT in the beginning this is not the case. This is because we pin lets say 300mg of test-e, this will reach a lower peak compared to 300mg of prop but the test-e will be sustained longer (obvious I know)

    Now lets say that you are injecting 700mg/week (100mg of Prop/day OR 300mg of Enanthate E3D). So the difference as I see it is that the test-e will reach a peak close to that of the prop within 48hrs but before the next pin will drop below the level that the ED Prop inject would be providing. SO WTF AM I GETTING AT???

    What I've been kicking around is that longer ester like enanthate should be treated like an ACE or PROP ester for the first week or so for a more immediate response. I've been thinking about a dosing protocol (have not finalized it) like this:


    Test-E Cycle @700mg/week

    Week 1- Day 1 300mg (normal dose if injecting E3D)
    Week 1- Day 2-7 100mg/day (Normal dose if injecting ED)
    Week 2- Day 1-7 200mg EOD (Normal dose if injecting EOD)
    Week 3- Day 1-7 300mg E3D (Normal dose if injecting E3D)

    Continue pinning 300mg E3D for the rest of the cycle. For this layout you start like a normal E3D pin/dose schedule for the initial dose to get a decent peak level going with the Enan, then you pin ED as if it was prop, 2week pin EOD, and 3rd week continue as a normal E3D schedule.

    I don't consider this a "front load" because you are only getting 900mg total the first week instead of 700. The goal is not to explode up to peak levels but rather take little steps everyday to obtain stable peak levels sooner as it does not allow days between injections for the test-e to fall back towards baseline. Should also help with sides and stalling out that are usually associated with typical front loading.

    I will be trying this method out on my next cycle.
    I see what you are trying to do but you will want to readjust it. Here is how your test levels will look otherwise:

    http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/0tj0/newchart.jpg

    Basically youll be shooting your levels way up then slowly coming back down, thats counterproductive. AND you would need at least a couple extra vials of test e when you could have just used one vial of prop and got away smoother and cheaper.

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    I prefer running a tne/dbol blend the first 4 weeks. The only downside is dropping more powerful compounds if you are just running test. Solution? Run the tne/dbol preworkout for the remainder.

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    POB should be able to tell you why this is a bad idea, lol

    Treating a longer ester like a short one will not help you at all. Longer esters usually translate into better gains in the long run because the further you space out the injections the higher the peaks you can achieve. Why is that? Well, it's simply based on the fact that injections that are further spaced out are of higher volume. With 1000mg EW on an EOD basis, you would never catch up to the levels that 500mg twice weekly would bring you.

    Yes but when doing the ED injections your weekly total is above your planned cycle at E3D injections (900mg vs 700mg)

    As far as "taking little steps everyday" that is known as pyramiding (or at least the first part of it). This is how things used to be done back in the day, but now we realize that this is just not necessary. "Stable levels" are actually easier to maintain with long esters than you might think. A stable level is still a wide range. Unstable would be injecting an acetate ester once weekly. In other words it would have to be a traumatic rise and fall. And the side effects that could be attributed to unstable levels certainly would not be present with normal twice weekly injections of a longer ester. So, as you can see, your plan only HINDERS getting you to desired levels in a timely manner and you really won't be avoiding any side effects.

    The baby steps here are when you inject your initial dose you do not wait 3-4days before your next pin. Therefore levels would climb within 24hrs when the next dose reaches its peak. If you wait 3-4days your levels will fall. The initial dose is the same you just add smaller doses more frequently. This is not old school pyramiding as I am aware of it--> gradually increasing the weekly dose then gradually decreasing.. Also the side effects I mentioned are in regards to frontloading, which are high aromatization and stalling gains.

    Frontloading really does work if you do it correctly. As POB was saying earlier, all you really need to do is get the first dose higher. In the article below, Bill Roberts explains frontloading in its simplest form:

    http://thinksteroids.com/articles/fr...ding-steroids/[/QUOTE]

    I'm not knocking frontloading but if it works so well why doesn't everyone use enanthate esters (cheaper per mg) and frontload them, and inject less frequently...seems like no one does this
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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    Originally Posted by 0tj0 View Post
    I see what you are trying to do but you will want to readjust it. Here is how your test levels will look otherwise:

    http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/0tj0/newchart.jpg

    Basically youll be shooting your levels way up then slowly coming back down, thats counterproductive. AND you would need at least a couple extra vials of test e when you could have just used one vial of prop and got away smoother and cheaper.
    That's a sick chart!! But I think you are missing something in your calculations. The 1st week you only pin 900mg, the rest of the weeks are 700mg, but somehow you have test levels falling after the second week? It looks like week#2 you have everyday injections of 200mg. that's is wrong. it would be 200mg every other day
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  19. #19
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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    mlupi319...

    I understand what you are thinking with what you had posted there. But the OP showed you with his chart what would happen at the end of your first week. Your overall levels and the peaks you would reach would be on the decline. So, really you're just wasting product. If you used a short ester like the OP mentions then it makes sense.

    Frontloading is not for everyone. If you want to run 500mg EW of test E, then your initial frontloading dose needs to be 500mg (amount over the half life) plus the inital 250mg pin... so that's 750mg total, and then you go about your normal schedule. I would not frontload if you are planning on running a very long cycle. But if you want to get the most out of longer esters in a shorter 10 week span, then frontloading is ideal. As far as estro sides, arimidex and aromasin are much stronger than any estro spike. You could even "frontload" the AI by starting with it a day or 2 before your fist injection and then continuing onto a normal schedule. Remember, Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor, but also occupies receptor sites that could be used by aromatase, therefore not even allowing the process to take place.

    The main reason I don't think more people frontload is because they are not educated about how to do it properly and/or don't like the idea of a large mg injection. However, it's only the one time that you will be injecting that much so it's not of concern. Hell, I'm used to 3x weekly injections of 3ml by now if I have to, lol. And I do think most people run long esters simply because you don't have to inject as much. Also, because the gains come a bit slower over a longer period of time than the short esters, the gains from long esters are generally easier to keep. I myself like short esters and favor shorter cycles because the abuse your body takes is much less and the recovery time is much faster. You can run more cycles (different types) per year on a short cycle plan than you can on a long cycle plan so it makes sense to me.

    There is no right way to do things, it's all about comfort level. I still think the way to go for bulking is to go about your normal 2x weekly injections with a kickstart of dbol or drol for 4-6 weeks. Those cycles always see the most gains.

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    Re: Half-lives/ kickoffs 101

    yep. sorry. misread it.

    Heres a new one. Your levels wont peak until day 21 though and it will cost you more.

    http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d3...newchart-1.jpg

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