Nolva and IGF-1 suppression

[Capt'n Ron]

Since it has been shown that Nolva can suppress IGF-1, and it's role as an estro control can be filled by an AI, should it be left out of a PCT plan? For example, running an AI throughout cycle and PCT along with the other elements, HCG and Clomid, of standard PCT plan?

 

[pirovoliko]

Im not familiar with the exact level and duration of IGF suppression caused by Nolva, but, IMO, I do think nolva is superior to Clomid when it comes to the all important PCT. So i guess you need to weight the suppression data against the benefits of a proper PCT.
I think it also has alot to due with the cycle your ending and the compounds involved. Also, if planning on leaving out nolva, I guess running an AI throughout the cycle will be of help as you enter the PCT phase.

 

[gymrat827]

id still go clomid/nolva/hcg for pct tho.

yes nolva does suppress igf, but not to the extent where id pass on using it.

 

[Capt'n Ron]

There is always more to learn. I was under the impression that Clomid was the main agent stimulating the HPTA once the HCG had done its job and that the Nolva was there strictly as a SERM to block estrogen. I now understand that It also plays a role in getting the endogenous Test ball rolling again. What a great place where your bros are there to keep you pointed in the right direction.

 

[LeanHerm]

Yes it drops igf levels about 50%. But remember what is the main reason of pct is. To get back natural test. Igf can be ran in pct if you're worried about. Also some compounds raise igf like tren, gh, and a lot more.

 

[Lulu66]

Remember that clomid and nolva affect the hpta in different ways nolva at the pituitary level stimulating lh production, clomid other at the testes. So i ould u se them in conjunction to guarantee a complete and timely recovery.

 

[Capt'n Ron]

I found this post by our Bro Get Some over on ID. It made it even clearer why you need both Clomid and Nolva for PCT.

Clomid AND Nolvadex - The Reason
Below is a short excerpt Q&A from a Michael Scally, M.D. article discussing the differences and synergies between comid and nolvadex. Instead of posting the entire article (which no one will read) I decided to pick what I thought was the most important section. THE SECTION THAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND. If there's one thing that I want to get people to understand it's that Clomid itself is a mixed agonist/antagonist that actually acts as an estrogen. Nolva is a pure antagonist. I've highlighted the more important pieces below for you "skimmers" out there

__________________________________________________ ________

Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T

 

[Supra]

Nolvadex taken for PCT btw 4-6 weeks is not going to show any significant drop in IGF. if your concerned about it use Prami, it increases IGF. Or take the real thing, GH.
I would not even sweat this small stuff.

 

[Supra]

I would take a bleep suppression in my IGF any day over not doing a proper PCT with Nolva and Torem....Any day