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  1. #1
    Senior Moderator Spongy's Avatar
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    Hero or Traitor?

    what do you all think?

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...llance-source/

    The source of the bombshell leaks about the U.S. government gathering information on billions of phone calls and Internet activities was an American employed as a contract worker for the National Security Agency, The Guardian newspaper, which broke the story, said Sunday.
    The British newspaper has identified the source as 29-year-old Edward Snowden, who worked for defense contractor Booz Allen Hamilton and was a former technical assistant for the CIA.
    The Washington Post followed the Guardian announcement by saying Snowden was the source for its surveillance stories that followed.
    Snowden told The Post from Hong Kong, where he has been staying, that he now intends to ask for asylum from "any countries that believe in free speech and oppose the victimization of global privacy.”
    In a nearly 13-minute video that accompanied The Guardian story Sunday, Snowden says he has no intentions of hiding because he has done nothing wrong.
    “When you’re in positions of privileged access … . You recognize some of these things are actual abuses,” Snowden said about his decision to be a whistleblower. “Over time, you feel compelled to talk about it.”
    The Guardian broke the story late Wednesday that the federal government was collecting phone call records from Verizon customers.
    The paper and The Post followed with a series of reports about the calls being taken from other telecommunications companies and that the NSA and FBI have a Internet scouring program, code-named PRISM, that records Internet activities, all part of a post-9-11 effort to thwart terrorism.
    Booz Allen said Sunday that Snowden was employed at the firm for less than three months and was assigned to a team in Hawaii.
    "News reports that this individual has claimed to have leaked classified information are shocking, and if accurate, this action represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm," Booz Allen said in a release. "We will work closely with our clients and authorities in their investigation of this matter."
    White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the Oval Office would not comment on Snowden before Monday.
    The Office of the Director of National Intelligence declined to comment on Snowden's disclosure, saying the issue has been referred to the Justice Department.
    However, the agency said: "Any person who has a security clearance knows that he or she has an obligation to protect classified information and abide by the law."
    New York Republican Rep. Peter King, chairman of the Homeland Security Subcommittee on Counterintelligence and Terrorism and a member of the Select Committee on Intelligence, said: "If Edward Snowden did in fact leak the NSA data as he claims, the United States government must prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law and begin extradition proceedings at the earliest date. The United States must make it clear that no country should be granting this individual asylum. This is a matter of extraordinary consequence to American intelligence."
    Washington officials have acknowledged all branches of the federal government -- Congress, the White House and federal courts -- knew about the collection of data under the Patriot Act.
    Still, the leaks have reopened the debate about privacy concerns versus heightened measure to protect against terrorist attacks. They also led the NSA to ask the Justice Department to conduct a criminal investigation.
    Fox News confirmed the Obama administration took the first steps Saturday in a criminal investigation when officials filed a “crimes report.”
    National Intelligence Director James Clapper has decried the leaks as reckless. And in the past days he has taken the rare step of declassifying some details about them to respond to media reports about counterterrorism techniques employed by the government.
    “Disclosing information about the specific methods the government uses to collect communications can obviously give our enemies a ‘playbook’ of how to avoid detection,” Clapper said Saturday.
    PRISM allows the federal government to tap directly into the servers of major U.S. Internet companies such as Google, Apple, Microsoft, Facebook and AOL, scooping out emails, video chats, instant messages and more to track foreign nationals who are suspected of terrorism or espionage.
    The chief executives of Facebook and Google have said their companies were not aware the data grab.
    Officials say the government is not listening to any of the billions of phone calls, only logging the numbers.
    President Obama, Clapper and others also have said the programs are subject to strict supervision of a secret court.
    Obama said Friday that the programs have made a difference in tracking terrorists and are not tantamount to "Big Brother."
    The president acknowledged the U.S. government is collecting reams of phone records, including phone numbers and the duration of calls, but said this does not include listening to calls or gathering the names of callers.
    "You can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience,” he said. “We're going to have to make some choices as a society."
    However, the president said he welcomes a debate on that issue.
    Snowden is quoted as saying that his "sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."
    The Guardian reported that Snowden was working in an NSA office in Hawaii when he copied the last of the documents he planned to disclose and told supervisors that he needed to be away for a few weeks to receive treatment for epilepsy.
    Snowden is quoted as saying he chose Hong Kong because it has a "spirited commitment to free speech and the right of political dissent" and because he believed it was among the spots on the globes that could and would resist the dictates of the U.S. government.
    Snowden is quoted as saying he hopes the publicity of the leaks will provide him some protection and that he sees asylum, perhaps in Iceland, as a possibility.
    "I feel satisfied that this was all worth it. I have no regrets," Snowden told the Guardian
    Snowden was said to have worked on IT security for the CIA and by 2007 was stationed with diplomatic cover in Geneva, responsible for maintaining computer network security. That gave him clearance to a range of classified documents, according to the Guardian report.
    "Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realized that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."
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  2. #2
    Elite StoliFTW's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    trick question ..

    to me personally hero
    to us a nation traitor

  3. #3
    Elite DarksideSix's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    He's not a traitor in my eyes, he didn't give secrets to a foreign country, he just shed some light on more of the sneaky shit our government does on a daily basis. He ain't no hero though either.
    "Whatever life throws at you, put it on the bar and press it"

  4. #4
    Elite PFM's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    Using the technology to apprehend terrorists, child porn/molesters is great.

    The problem is LE is always trying to find ways to hire their sons, daughters and grandkids, so we will have this same tech used to bust gear, pot, some guy making aplle cider and anyone not giving the IRS their cut (Big Hard Criminals). This will create a "demand" to hire more LE to handle the cases, more jobs and promotions and the ridiculous benefits and pensions that come with.
    Thugs
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  5. #5
    Senior Member graniteman's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    He did the right thing. Obamasama has turned every agency in The US Govt against American citizens, IRS, HLS, FBI , NSA , it's crazy. I can see surveiling muslim terrorists and other enemies in our country, their friends\contacts. But why the need to blanket 100 million American citizens personal info? Knowledge is power. Remember when the Klintons stole all the FBI files on Republican Senators \Congressman?

  6. #6
    Elite StoliFTW's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    Originally Posted by graniteman View Post
    He did the right thing. Obamasama has turned every agency in The US Govt against American citizens, IRS, HLS, FBI , NSA , it's crazy. I can see surveiling muslim terrorists and other enemies in our country, their friends\contacts. But why the need to blanket 100 million American citizens personal info? Knowledge is power. Remember when the Klintons stole all the FBI files on Republican Senators \Congressman?
    But isn't the patriot act the platform for this? I was under the impression current regime simply continued the policies from Bush in this regard. Either way we're back to pointing fingers - as usual - bottom line this is bs and violates our rights.

  7. #7
    Elite DarksideSix's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    Originally Posted by StoliFTW View Post
    But isn't the patriot act the platform for this? I was under the impression current regime simply continued the policies from Bush in this regard. Either way we're back to pointing fingers - as usual - bottom line this is bs and violates our rights.
    The patriot act allows them to violate certain levels of your privacy in the event of national security if they have reasonable cause to suspect terrorist activities. This basically says they can snoop on you whenever the **** they want. totally different.
    "Whatever life throws at you, put it on the bar and press it"

  8. #8
    Elite StoliFTW's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    I wouldn't say totally, it's a matter of definition only, and still the Patriot Act Legislation was the fundamental piece of legislation to give LE unlawful authority for this program.

    Check this out:
    http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/news/...umentID=337001

    Bottom line, this is illegal, and you are right nowhere in the Patriot Act does it allow to spy on all citizens, but yet it was done under the piece of legislation called Patriot Act. Who knows I might be wrong here. My mind is on my sheiko training program. **** the government. I'm for total Anarchy - survival of the fittest.

  9. #9
    Elite StoliFTW's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    From the NY Times: (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/op...anted=all&_r=0)

    Based on an article in The Guardian published Wednesday night, we now know that the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency used the Patriot Act to obtain a secret warrant to compel Verizon’s business services division to turn over data on every single call that went through its system. We know that this particular order was a routine extension of surveillance that has been going on for years, and it seems very likely that it extends beyond Verizon’s business division. There is every reason to believe the federal government has been collecting every bit of information about every American’s phone calls except the words actually exchanged in those calls.

  10. #10
    Elite TheExperiment's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    He's a hero. I am all for protection from terrorism and support our military, but there is no reason to snoop on all of the American citizens phone calls and internet activity.

  11. #11
    Senior Member graniteman's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    Originally Posted by StoliFTW View Post
    I wouldn't say totally, it's a matter of definition only, and still the Patriot Act Legislation was the fundamental piece of legislation to give LE unlawful authority for this program.

    Check this out:
    http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/news/...umentID=337001

    Bottom line, this is illegal, and you are right nowhere in the Patriot Act does it allow to spy on all citizens, but yet it was done under the piece of legislation called Patriot Act. Who knows I might be wrong here. My mind is on my sheiko training program. **** the government. I'm for total Anarchy - survival of the fittest.

    Difference is with the ''Patriot Act'' you needed a FISA warrant, these dbags can't be trusted with anything, either party.

  12. #12
    Elite basskiller's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    Just reminds me of a line in the Billy Jack movie.. "When the police break the law, then there is no law"
    cause I said so

  13. #13
    Senior Member sfstud33's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    If he signed a non disclosure agreement as part of his employment - then he is in breach of that agreement.

    Im not advocating what the government is doing, but people really need to understand the consequenses of their actions. If you think you will get away sticking your fingers up the governments nose then you are really really asking for it.

    What is interesting is this guy "blew the whistle" but the program and legislation were authorized by Congress. So why didn't the media catch any of these before it happens? Is no one reading new legislation as it goes through. Or is it like obamacare where everyone got to read it after they voted on it?

    Seems to me that its the way congress works - or does not work - that is the root cause of most problems.
    Powered by food, raw ambition, and an awesome woman.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Times Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    What he posted was vetted twice.

    No one's lives were at stake.

    No tech was disclosed that would compromise our military.

    The government gets away with waaaay too much by being able to say "in the interests of national security".

    When they say this, for some reason, we as citizens are forebidden from asking subsequent questions. Who decides if it is in the national interest? Quite often, it is an abuse by the government, a way for them to be able to do shit they ordinarily would not be able to get away with.

    I admire this bloke. He did the right thing (in his mind) and understood the risk. The problem is, he embarrassed the US government, and are trying to save face by evoking the "in the interests of national security" bull shit.

    Our government is getting too draconian, and trampling our rights and our freedoms.

    Our country needs MORE that are willing to put it all on the line to help reel in our government.

    Clearly, this gentleman is NOT a sheople!!!

    Much respect!

    ---Roman

  15. #15
    Senior Member Times Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    Originally Posted by sfstud33 View Post
    If he signed a non disclosure agreement as part of his employment - then he is in breach of that agreement.

    Im not advocating what the government is doing, but people really need to understand the consequenses of their actions. If you think you will get away sticking your fingers up the governments nose then you are really really asking for it.

    What is interesting is this guy "blew the whistle" but the program and legislation were authorized by Congress. So why didn't the media catch any of these before it happens? Is no one reading new legislation as it goes through. Or is it like obamacare where everyone got to read it after they voted on it?

    Seems to me that its the way congress works - or does not work - that is the root cause of most problems.
    Just because you sign a release at the hospital before undergoing surgery does NOT mean you do not have recourse if things go wrong!

    My woman worked for a dentist that would have a couple of cocktails at lunch, and then "back to the office to pull teeth". Problem was, he would get slammed, and on occasion, pull the wrong tooth! He then would reseat the pulled tooth, and pull the right tooth.

    Signing a document does NOT mean you give up your rights as a free and moral agent!!

  16. #16
    Senior Member sfstud33's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    No, this is true,

    But you should start from the default position of erring on the cautious side before you go out in a blaze of national security glory.

    If the stuff was vetted by his superiors and approved, then the people who are responsible are his superiors. Hopefully the media will get to the bottom of this.

    And i agree, whenever someone says - in the interests of national security - the translation is - we really dont want to tell you - and we're using this excuse not to. Im curious as to how this fits into the open and transparent government that we were promised. Or, maybe we dont get open and transparent in the interests of national security :-)
    Powered by food, raw ambition, and an awesome woman.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Times Roman's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    sometimes the default position is corrupt.

    I'm a CPA, and have certain ethical considerations I must make to protect my license.

    My first loyalty is to my ethics, my second loyalty is to my employer. I have lost very promising and lucrative jobs due to the unethical practices by my employer. And ultimately, they paid dearly due to settlements.

    Dont' be so quick to think that signing a piece of paper, and employer loyalty, are the default and correct positions.

    This is why the federal government is so aggressive with it's whistle blower program

    Unfortunately, there is no whistle blower program against the federal government.

  18. #18
    Elite grizzldsealpoacher's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    I am becoming more and more a conspiracy weirdo. Of all the people that work on this project, y him y now? Really after 2 years on the job all of the sudden you decide enough is enough? I feel like there is something bigger behind these leaks. Big Bro is huge , so big I feel that if it did not want this info out there it wouldn't be . I cant go as far as to even guess y this story is coming out, who's agenda it serves , but I feel like there is one and really don't give a **** either. I agree though the problem is if lower levels of LE get there hands on this technology and use it to **** with regular joes trying to live there life the way they want
    Enjoy Your Ride!

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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    I think it's funny that wiretapping one office gets a president's resignation but wiretapping millions of innocent people is nothing. Blowing the whistle on government corruption is a patriotic act. This man is a true American hero.

  20. #20
    Senior Member corvettels3's Avatar
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    Re: Hero or Traitor?

    This jackass just gave the heads up to terrorist groups. The dude is a ****ing traitor and deserves a bullet in the head.

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