Kill my raloxifene gyno cycle.

[gymrat827]

well yes, i have it. Had it as a teen, made it way way worse when i was sr. in college and had no clue what i was doing with AAS. Time for raloxifene gyno treatment.

here it goes

mast p 200 1-4
mast e 700 1-12

TPP 200 1-4
tes E 250 1-12

caber .25mg M/W/F 1-14 (or 15/16)
stane 6.25mg ED 1-14 (or 15/16)
Ralox 45mg ED 1-14

pct
Nolva, 6wks 40/40/20/20/10/10
osta @ 20mg (sarm)

Im really hopeful that it will be pretty much gone by pct and the nolva will take care of the last bit and any rebound that may take place. If its not gone by pct i may just continue on nolva long term. Caber/ralox/stane will all be pharm grade....taking no chances here on bunk stuff

posting this input from others.

 

[TheLupinator]

No letro?..personally I hate letro but it's supposed to be good at shrinking gyno.. I ran ralox last year for some pubertal gyno I aggrevated during my first cycle just like you - 60mg/day for 4months...didn't notice much of a difference, maybe it was bunk, who knows.

 

[Azog]

Good luck GR! Just don't get your hopes up, brother. I don't wanna be a party pooper, but from my own experience and what I have read, these protocols don't often work terribly well on pubertal gyno. Still worth a shot though! I gave it a good year with such protocols....but eventually said **** it and got it knife'd out.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

SERMs like raloxifene and tamoxifen have been proven to be very effective at reversing gyno, even pubertal gyno. Taking raloxifene at 60mg/day for 10days and 30mg/day after that until gyno reverses is a very good treatment option. You don't want to keep the ralox at 60mg for much longer than 10days as it can lead to BDL (bone density loss). Tamoxifen can be ran at 40mg daily for 2wks and 20mg daily after that, again the drop in dosage is related to loss of bone density. A good option would be to supplement with vitamin D (2000-5000iu daily) and calcium to help manage and bone density issues. Hope this helps

Edit* forgot to mention that tamoxifen has been shown to cure gyno in up to 76% of cases and ralox eve more. These cases can take months so don't get discouraged if you see no results after only a few weeks.

 

[gymrat827]

if i use letro....it would be post pct. prolly 1.5mg ED, .25mg caber EOD. that would my last, final attempt.

Im aware i may be on ralox/nolva for 6 months +

 

[Azog]

SERMs like raloxifene and tamoxifen have been proven to be very effective at reversing gyno, even pubertal gyno. Taking raloxifene at 60mg/day for 10days and 30mg/day after that until gyno reverses is a very good treatment option. You don't want to keep the ralox at 60mg for much longer than 10days as it can lead to BDL (bone density loss). Tamoxifen can be ran at 40mg daily for 2wks and 20mg daily after that, again the drop in dosage is related to loss of bone density. A good option would be to supplement with vitamin D (2000-5000iu daily) and calcium to help manage and bone density issues. Hope this helps

Edit* forgot to mention that tamoxifen has been shown to cure gyno in up to 76% of cases and ralox eve more. These cases can take months so don't get discouraged if you see no results after only a few weeks.

Mind posting the studies you have read? I have only seen a few floating around. Just curious .

Also, there is no "cure" for gyno. I don't want anyone to be misled. It is not a disease. It is just breast tissue, and everyone has it. You can shrink it back to a less noticeable size, but it will always be there and always have the potential to increase in size again. Even after excision, a small amount of tissue is left in order to prevent a collapse of the nipple structure. Meaning, even after surgery the potential for an increase in the size of the tissue is still there.

 

[Seeker]

Like Azog I dont want bust any hopes but it's my understanding that once Gyno sets in its there to stay until you have surgery. It is also my understanding that the protocols that you guys are discussing is for reversing oncoming gyno before it's too late.

Good luck though. I wish you the best

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Mind posting the studies you have read? I have only seen a few floating around. Just curious .

Also, there is no "cure" for gyno. I don't want anyone to be misled. It is not a disease. It is just breast tissue, and everyone has it. You can shrink it back to a less noticeable size, but it will always be there and always have the potential to increase in size again. Even after excision, a small amount of tissue is left in order to prevent a collapse of the nipple structure. Meaning, even after surgery the potential for an increase in the size of the tissue is still there.

Of course brother.

Treatment of gynecomastia with tamoxifen: a double-blind crossover study.

AuthorsParker LN, et al. Show all Journal
Metabolism. 1986 Aug;35(8):705-8.
Affiliation
Abstract
Benign asymptomatic or painful enlargement of the male breast is a common problem, postulated to be due to an increased estrogen/testosterone ration or due to increased estrogenic or decreased androgenic stimulation via estrogen or androgen receptor interactions. Treatment at present consists of analgesic medication or surgery. However, treatment directed against the preponderance of estrogenic stimulation would seem to represent a more specific form of therapy. In the present double-blind crossover study, one-month courses of a placebo or the antiestrogen tamoxifen (10 mg given orally bid) were compared in random order. Seven of ten patients experienced a decrease in the size of their gynecomastia due to tamoxifen (P less than 0.005). Overall, the decrease for gynecomastia for the whole group was significant (P less than 0.01). There was no beneficial effect of placebo (P greater than 0.1). Additionally, all four patients with painful gynecomastia experienced symptomatic relief. There was no toxicity. The reduction of breast size was partial and may indicate the need for a longer course of therapy. A followup examination was performed in eight out of ten patients nine months to one year after discontinuing placebo and tamoxifen. There were no significant changes from the end of the initial study period except for one tamoxifen responder who developed a recurrence of breast tenderness after six months, and one nonresponder who demonstrated an increase in breast size and a new onset of tenderness after ten months. Therefore, antiestrogenic treatment with tamoxifen may represent a safe and effective mode of treatment for selected cases of cosmetically disturbing or painful gynecomastia.

PMID 3526085 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3526085/

[Influence of size and duration of gynecomastia on its response to treatment with tamoxifen].

AuthorsDevoto C E, et al. Show all Journal
Rev Med Chil. 2007 Dec;135(12):1558-65. doi: /S0034-98872007001200009. Epub 2008 Feb 13. Article in Spanish.
Affiliation
Sección Endocrinología, Servicio de Medicina, Hospital Clínico San Borja Arriarán, Santiago, Chile. edevoto@vtr.net
Abstract
BACKGROUND: Gynecomastia is treated when it is painful, there are psychosocial repercussions or it does not revert in less than two years. It is treated with the antiestrogenic drug tamoxifen, but there are doubts about its effectiveness in high volume gynecomastias or in those lasting more than two years.

AIM: To assess the effectiveness and safety of tamoxifen for gynecomastia and the influence of its volume and duration on the response to treatment.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: Forty three patients with gynecomastia, aged 12 to 62 years, were studied. Twenty seven patients had a pubertal physiological gynecomastia, in eight it was caused by medications, in four it was secondary to hypogonadism, in three it was idiopathic and in one it was due to toxic exposure. Twenty patients had mastodynia and in 33, gynecomastia had a diameter over 4 cm. It lasted less than two years in 30 patients, more than two years in nine and four did not recall its duration. All were treated with tamoxifen 20 mg/day for 6 months. A follow up evaluation was performed at three and six months of treatment.

RESULTS: Mastodynia disappeared in all patients at three months. At six months gynecomastia disappeared in 26 patients (62%), but relapsed in 27%. All gynecomastias caused by drugs with antiandrogen activity disappeared. Fifty two percent of gynecomastias over 4 cm and 90% of those of less than 4 cm in diameter disappeared (p<0.05). Fifty six percent of gynecomastias lasting more than two years and 70% of those of a shorter duration disappeared (p=NS). Two patients had diarrhea or flushes associated to the therapy.

CONCLUSIONS: Tamoxifen is safe and effective for the treatment of gynecomastia. Larger lesions have a lower response to treatment.

PMID 18357357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18357357/

Lawrence and colleagues report their experience with the use of either raloxifene or tamoxifen, both antiestrogenic agents, in reducing breast size in adolescent boys with benign gynecomastia. The data presented are from a retrospective review of 37 patients: 12 received reassurance alone, 10 received raloxifene (60 mg once daily for 3 to 9 months), and 15 received tamoxifen (10 to 20 mg twice dialy for 3 to 9 months). Baseline studies including LH, FSH, testosterone, and estradiol levels were normal in all subjects and there were no significant differences among the groups with regard to age at initiation of treatment, Tanner stage, BMI or baseline hormone levels. Significant reductions in breast diameter were measured with both raloxifene (2.5cm, 66% reduction) and tamoxifen (2.1cm, 46% reduction). However, a 50% or greater reduction was seen more often in the raloxifene treated group (86% vs 41%). No side effects of the medications were reported.

^^^ Growth, Genetics, & Hormone Journal Volume 20, Issue 4, December 2004

Tamoxifen therapy for painful idiopathic gynecomastia.

AuthorsMcDermott MT, et al. Show all Journal
South Med J. 1990 Nov;83(11):1283-5.
Affiliation
Department of Medicine, Fitzsimons Army Medical Center, Aurora, CO 80045-5001.
Abstract
We have evaluated the efficacy of the antiestrogen tamoxifen in six men with painful idiopathic gynecomastia. Subjects were given either tamoxifen or placebo for 2 to 4 months and then were given the other agent for an identical period. Breast size was considered to have been reduced only if it had decreased by one or more Marshall-Tanner stages during the treatment period. Pain reduction with tamoxifen therapy was statistically significant for the group, occurring in five of six subjects during tamoxifen treatment and in only one of six during the placebo period. Size reduction with tamoxifen was only marginally significant for the entire group, but occurred in all three subjects who were initially in Marshall-Tanner stage III and in none of the three subjects who were initially in stage V. During tamoxifen treatment, there was a significant increase in the serum levels of luteinizing hormone and total estradiol and a marginally significant increment in the total testosterone level.

PMID 2237557 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/2237557/


There are a few more I have indexed and bookmarked at home if you'd like some more studies brother.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Like Azog I dont want bust any hopes but it's my understanding that once Gyno sets in its there to stay until you have surgery. It is also my understanding that the protocols that you guys are discussing is for reversing oncoming gyno before it's too late.

Good luck though. I wish you the best

SERMs have been shown to reduce and in many cases reverse gyno even in pubertal gyno cases where the patients had it for years and years.

I too wish you luck OP. Whatever method you try I hope works for you

 

[gymrat827]

Like Azog I dont want bust any hopes but it's my understanding that once Gyno sets in its there to stay until you have surgery. It is also my understanding that the protocols that you guys are discussing is for reversing oncoming gyno before it's too late.

Good luck though. I wish you the best

kinda of right.

Treatment is long term.....most blast letro + caber for 2wks thinking it will go away.

I am also thinking of going 20wks on the cycle if theres little to no progress by wk 12.



My been reading on this for 6 months. I dont think theres anything better i could be using. now time to put it to the test. It will start in about 5wks. Dec 1.

 

[Azog]

SERMs have been shown to reduce and in many cases reverse gyno even in pubertal gyno cases where the patients had it for years and years.

I too wish you luck OP. Whatever method you try I hope works for you

Interesting studies! Thank you for sharing them. Guess I'm just unlucky .

My main point was just to make sure people know there is no cure for gyno. Even if these treatments are successful (or even if you have had surgery), gyno CAN come back! Maybe I am paranoid, but shit...gyno is ugly and I don't want that shit coming back!

 

[Seeker]

Doc, let me you ask this then. After reading these studies should one be completely off the gear while trying to reverse the gyno?

 

[gymrat827]

Doc, let me you ask this then. After reading these studies should one be completely off the gear while trying to reverse the gyno?

A hi dose of masteron will create an unfavorable environment for gyno....Thats the 1 thing you need. A few guys have already done this exactly cycle and i am essentially copying them. Next would be the long term dosing of ralox or nolva... like 18-24wks.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Interesting studies! Thank you for sharing them. Guess I'm just unlucky .

My main point was just to make sure people know there is no cure for gyno. Even if these treatments are successful (or even if you have had surgery), gyno CAN come back! Maybe I am paranoid, but shit...gyno is ugly and I don't want that shit coming back!

Not at all my man, I'm happy I could be of help. Gyno is ugly and you're absolutely right, even if reversed with SERM treatment, it is capable of coming back in which case another round of SERMs Or surgery would be in order. Mind if I ask how you treated your gyno?

Doc, let me you ask this then. After reading these studies should one be completely off the gear while trying to reverse the gyno?

If you're on a cycle I personally wouldn't cut it short as many anecdotal experiences and studies have shown that not only can gyno be treated/reversed while on cycle but that androgen abuse induced gyno is one of the most easily treatable forms. If you're on cycle though, the gyno may not reverse while you're on cycle (it can take up to 6-9months or longer in some cases) so continued treatment may be required. Also if on cycle, managing estrogen is CRITICAL. I can't stress that enough, estrogen management is critical and the first line of defense. Get blood work mid cycle, preferably a sensitive E2 assay, take your AI, monitor for sides, etc. Stay on top of it.

Gyno is weird bc is etiology is not 100% known. Certain medications can lead to gyno, elevated estrogen, estrogen dominance (elevated estrogen levels in relation to progesterone), recreational drugs, AAS (androgenic drugs), etc have all been shown to lead to gyno but as far as I'm aware the exact mechanism of action or pathway is still unknown. Gyno can only happen in the presence of estrogen, IGF-1, and HGH. They're all concomitant factors, meaning in the absence of one, gyno won't present itself. Taking HGH and IGF-1 if susceptible to gyno could make things worse, aromatizable cycles without managing estrogen is another cause, etc.

Technically speaking gynecomastia is the hyperplasia or growth of the ductal cells in breast tissue. Only estrogen affects the ductal tissue cells while progesterone affects the aereal cells in breast tissue, and prolactin will lead to lactation if too high for too long. So only estrogen can cause gyno as we define it but progesterone can lead to gyno bc of the estrogen to progesterone ratio and high progesterone can make you more susceptible to the effects of elevated estrogen. Prolactin similarly can amify the effects of elevated estrogen but does not play a direct role like the other two.

 

[#TheMatrix]

GR...
long term , while ON. or OFF?
I love mast too.

 

[gymrat827]

GR...
long term , while ON. or OFF?
I love mast too.

on or off. a low dose of tes and a hi hi dose of mast is a good start.

 

[hulksmash]

Just run test

Then run letro with Nolva

Goodbye gyno

In fact, I had pubertal gyno (puffy nips)...it left after I started cruising on test oddly enough

Probably has something to do with how my body is with DHT (lack of body/facial hair, no balding issues, et al)

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Just run test

Then run letro with Nolva

Goodbye gyno

In fact, I had pubertal gyno (puffy nips)...it left after I started cruising on test oddly enough

Probably has something to do with how my body is with DHT (lack of body/facial hair, no balding issues, et al)

One cause of gyno is hormonal imbalance. An improper ratio to testosterone to estrogen or estrogen to progesterone both could have been likely factors. By going on cycle you increase your testosterone levels and lower estrogen (from baseline or at least control it).

 

[hulksmash]

One cause of gyno is hormonal imbalance. An improper ratio to testosterone to estrogen or estrogen to progesterone both could have been likely factors. By going on cycle you increase your testosterone levels and lower estrogen (from baseline or at least control it).

Which I figured, and one of the variables that help convince my wife to let me stay on

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Which I figured, and one of the variables that help convince my wife to let me stay on

If that's all it takes to convince her she is one special woman. A keeper!