Any correlation between high/low e2 and immune system?

[Bigbadwolf25]

Have you guys noticed any difference in your immune system when your e2 is high vs low. Do you get sick more often with one or the other? Curious?

 

[IronSoul]

Good question. I’d like to see if there are studies on this. I could see immune system being down some with E2 being too low, just as it is with low test.


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[East]

Generally testosterone has an immunosuppressive effect while estrogen has an immunoenhancing effect on the immune system. Estrogen has been shown to regulate immune response by impairing negative selection of high affinity auto-reactive B cells, modulating B cell function and leading to Th2 response. Estrogen influences physiological functions via ERs which are expressed in brain, gut epithelial cells, lymphoid tissue cells as well as immune cells. Estrogen also induces T cell homing by enhancing the expression of CCR5, a homing marker

can’t post link

 

[Send0]

Generally testosterone has an immunosuppressive effect while estrogen has an immunoenhancing effect on the immune system. Estrogen has been shown to regulate immune response by impairing negative selection of high affinity auto-reactive B cells, modulating B cell function and leading to Th2 response. Estrogen influences physiological functions via ERs which are expressed in brain, gut epithelial cells, lymphoid tissue cells as well as immune cells. Estrogen also induces T cell homing by enhancing the expression of CCR5, a homing marker

can’t post link

Sex Hormones Determine Immune Response

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Bigbadwolf25]

Generally testosterone has an immunosuppressive effect while estrogen has an immunoenhancing effect on the immune system. Estrogen has been shown to regulate immune response by impairing negative selection of high affinity auto-reactive B cells, modulating B cell function and leading to Th2 response. Estrogen influences physiological functions via ERs which are expressed in brain, gut epithelial cells, lymphoid tissue cells as well as immune cells. Estrogen also induces T cell homing by enhancing the expression of CCR5, a homing marker

can’t post link

Hm interesting. So wonder if it's better to let e2 ride higher in the winter/flu months. I always heard how gear lowered immune system but never thought about the ai affect it could have.

 

[buck]

Generally testosterone has an immunosuppressive effect while estrogen has an immunoenhancing effect on the immune system. Estrogen has been shown to regulate immune response by impairing negative selection of high affinity auto-reactive B cells, modulating B cell function and leading to Th2 response. Estrogen influences physiological functions via ERs which are expressed in brain, gut epithelial cells, lymphoid tissue cells as well as immune cells. Estrogen also induces T cell homing by enhancing the expression of CCR5, a homing marker

can’t post link

Was the study done with both sexes. If so how did the men fair with different E2 levels.

Sex Hormones Determine Immune Response

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

From a quick scan i did not see where there was any direct correlation between men and E2. Unless i missed it. I would not assume that how a hormone effects a woman would necessarily have the same effect on a man.

 

[Send0]

Was the study done with both sexes. If so how did the men fair with different E2 levels.

From a quick scan i did not see where there was any direct correlation between men and E2. Unless i missed it. I would not assume that how a hormone effects a woman would necessarily have the same effect on a man.

It could be argued both ways; E2 is neuroprotective in men and women, improves lipids in both sexes, and a number of other things. However without a study that definitively says that E2 it effects men the same way we don't know for certain.

I'm of the opinion that in more cases than not, that sex hormones operate similarly in both men and women. However it's not like I have my own test pool of 50,000 participants to prove it.

Everyone should take from the article what they wish.

 

[Bigbadwolf25]

It could be argued both ways; E2 is neuroprotective in men and women, improves lipids in both sexes, and a number of other things. However without a study that definitively says that E2 it effects men the same way we don't know for certain.

I'm of the opinion that in more cases than not, that sex hormones operate similarly in both men and women. However it's not like I have my own test pool of 50,000 participants to prove it.

Everyone should take from the article what they wish.

Good points. I'm at the point trying to eliminate my ai during trt dose. E2 ultra sensitive is 62. Only side I really get is slight chubbier face. Everything else is very lean it's a pain in the ass. Diets in check too. I can't determine if the ai is worth it or not .

 

[buck]

It could be argued both ways; E2 is neuroprotective in men and women, improves lipids in both sexes, and a number of other things. However without a study that definitively says that E2 it effects men the same way we don't know for certain.

I'm of the opinion that in more cases than not, that sex hormones operate similarly in both men and women. However it's not like I have my own test pool of 50,000 participants to prove it.

Everyone should take from the article what they wish.

When i recently looked up how E2 effects cholesterol levels high E2 drove down HDL in many studies i have seen. So i would guess it is only protective to a degree. So i have found that while all hormones have benifits there are definite limits to what they are and the limits vary between the sexes. As men age the amount of E2 goes up yet their health does not benefit from it that i have seen.

 

[Send0]

When i recently looked up how E2 effects cholesterol levels high E2 drove down HDL in many studies i have seen. So i would guess it is only protective to a degree. So i have found that while all hormones have benifits there are definite limits to what they are and the limits vary between the sexes. As men age the amount of E2 goes up yet their health does not benefit from it that i have seen.

Too much of anything is not good; that goes without saying. Even now they say high HDL is not an indicator to predict cardiovascular disease; specifically I believe they said they found this did not appear to apply to those in the African American demographic. Some say too high of HDL is detrimental in general, and that people should aim for somewhere in the 40s.

These aging men you are referencing, were they people who were active, lifted weights, had good bone density, etc... or were they your typical aging men? What was the exact demographic? What lack of health benefits did you see documented?

My point is that there is a certain amount you can generalize; e.g. how do hormones work in the body. Then there are things that you need to scrutinize; e.g. what was the exact demographic of these men who did not benefit from E2... were they healthy men or were they couch potato's... how much fat did they carry, did they have a history of smoking or other unhealthy things in their past... Etc.

 

[buck]

Too much of anything is not good; that goes without saying. Even now they say high HDL is not an indicator to predict cardiovascular disease; specifically I believe they said they found this did not appear to apply to those in the African American demographic. Some say too high of HDL is detrimental in general, and that people should aim for somewhere in the 40s.

These aging men you are referencing, were they people who were active, lifted weights, had good bone density, etc... or were they your typical aging men? What was the exact demographic? What lack of health benefits did you see documented?

My point is that there is a certain amount you can generalize; e.g. how do hormones work in the body. Then there are things that you need to scrutinize; what was the exact demographic of these men who did not benefit from E2.

The aging men i am referencing are men in general as the get older. Their E2 levels go up. And of course their T levels go down. Men's body fat levels go up and the aromatase enzyme converts the T quicker for 1 thing. And some other factors influence it as well. A study i saw many years ago showed the average 59 year old man had higher levels of estrogen then a 55 year old woman does. Yet i don't see it improving mens lives more then women at that age of beyond. Of course that was just 1 study. But i am always open to new info as trying to be as big and strong as i can be for as long as i can be has always been a a main driving force for me. And not just size no matter what.
I was not trying to be argumentative. The thread was about E2 and the immune system and i did not see that referenced in the study but thought i may have missed something.

 

[Send0]

The aging men i am referencing are men in general as the get older. Their E2 levels go up. And of course their T levels go down. Men's body fat levels go up and the aromatase enzyme converts the T quicker for 1 thing. And some other factors influence it as well. A study i saw many years ago showed the average 59 year old man had higher levels of estrogen then a 55 year old woman does. Yet i don't see it improving mens lives more then women at that age of beyond. Of course that was just 1 study. But i am always open to new info as trying to be as big and strong as i can be for as long as i can be has always been a a main driving force for me. And not just size no matter what.
I was not trying to be argumentative. The thread was about E2 and the immune system and i did not see that referenced in the study but thought i may have missed something.

I'm also not being argumentive; I'm trying to explain how to scrutinize the studies.

Not all men's body fat levels go up as they age. That has more to do with diet and lifestyle than anything else. Look at the Japanese for example who maintain relatively healthy diets and stay active into their old age.

Also, estrogen in men tends to decline along with testosterone. We do produce less testosterone as we age. We also only get estrogen through aromatization of testosterone. All things being equal, we produce less estrogen with age... Not more.

Saying "men in general" automatically captures a number of other co-morbitiies that don't apply to those without declining testosterone, those who maintain a healthy diet, those who remain active and are not sedentary, those who do not carry a lot of belly fat, etc.

The study could end up being true, but it should be scrutinized. When we talk about how hormones work, we generally know specifically what they do in the body. However when we say something like men over 60 saw no benefit or increased longevity from in range or high E2, then we have to ask ourselves what else about these men could have been co-contributors or primary contributors.

 

[Send0]

This paper basically says health issues arise due to declining hormone levels in general (both testosterone and estrogen).

The paper has to be read in full to completely understand the correlations being made; can't just skim and pick sections... but here's the link if interested.

The Role of Androgens and Estrogens on Healthy Aging and Longevity

Aging is associated with a loss of sex hormone in both men (andropause) and women (menopause). In men, reductions in testosterone can trigger declines in muscle mass, bone mass, and in physical function. In women, the impact of the loss of sex hormones, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[buck]

I tend to understand studies some what. I have been looking at them for decades and was married to a research scientist and hung around labs for 10 years. And have always found such things interesting. But do not claim to be really well versed as i have no real schooling on the subject.

I have seen few and to be fair almost no well run long term studies looking at men that have lived life the way that is recommended. And i agree that trying to extrapolate info the general population as it applies to a person like me that has worked out their whole life, ate healthy and used hormones is difficult at best. But the general population is about the only group that studies are done with. So i have to reference them.

And the average person body weight goes up they get older, from all the studies i haver see. And they loose muscle mass from age 30 on for most. But in older people lifting does not change that as sarcopenia is just a reality. I have first hand proof of that.

And i think we have a good idea of how hormones work in general. I find that there is a lot of missing knowledge. But we are finding out more things all the time and feel there is still a long way to go to really understand how they work and how they influence each other.

I am still seeing studies that show Estrone, E2 and free E2 goes up as men age. Which of course causes the ratio between the 2 to get more skewed.

Age Trends in Estradiol and Estrone Levels Measured Using Liquid Chromatography Tandem Mass Spectrometry in Community-Dwelling Men of the Framingham Heart Study

Age trends in estradiol and estrone levels in men and how lifestyle factors, comorbid conditions, testosterone, and sex hormone–binding globulin affect these age trends remain poorly understood, and were examined in men of the Framingham Heart ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Send0]

Back to the original question of the thread.

I'll be honest; I think it's silly to worry about. Androgens suppress the immune system more than estrogen. We should treat the symptoms we can clearly see happening.

If we're really concerned about things like immune system, then under the context of hormone replacement we should try to run the minimum amount of hormone required to create quality of life.

I started out taking enough testosterone to put my trough at 1200ng/dL. I've reduced this several times now; down to 1000ng, 900ng and currently sitting at 800ng. I feel exactly the same as I did on 1200ng. Next step is I will try 700ng in 2023.

I think many people are obsessed with numbers they see, vs how they actually feel. I think many people believe they should continue to feel how they did when they first started taking testosterone; let's call this "chasing the high". Some people require higher testosterone to feel normal, but I think most just believe they should continue to feel the way they did during the first few months of TRT. That's not how the body works... if it were, then you would feel like you had raging puberty hormones well into your 30's.

 

[Bigbadwolf25]

Back to the original question of the thread.

I'll be honest; I think it's silly to worry about. Androgens suppress the immune system more than estrogen. We should treat the symptoms we can clearly see happening.

If we're really concerned about things like immune system, then under the context of hormone replacement we should try to run the minimum amount of hormone required to create quality of life.

I started out taking enough testosterone to put my trough at 1200ng/dL. I've reduced this several times now; down to 1000ng, 900ng and currently sitting at 800ng. I feel exactly the same as I did on 1200ng. Next step is I will try 700ng in 2023.

I think many people are obsessed with numbers they see, vs how they actually feel. I think many people believe they should continue to feel how they did when they first started taking testosterone; let's call this "chasing the high". Some people require higher testosterone to feel normal, but I think most just believe they should continue to feel the way they did during the first few months of TRT. That's not how the body works... if it were, then you would feel like you had raging puberty hormones well into your 30's.

Thanks a lot of good info there. Any ofe you guys just pop an ai whenever you feel you may need it. So got my blood work with ultra sensitive e2 62. Range 29 or less. Recently noticed face puffier and I get teary eye feeling watching clothes Christmas movies with the girl haha. So I decided to pop one 12.5 mg aromasin today and gonna see how I feel. Anyone else pop one whenever they think they need to drop the e2 just a bit?

 

[Send0]

Thanks a lot of good info there. Any ofe you guys just pop an ai whenever you feel you may need it. So got my blood work with ultra sensitive e2 62. Range 29 or less. Recently noticed face puffier and I get teary eye feeling watching clothes Christmas movies with the girl haha. So I decided to pop one 12.5 mg aromasin today and gonna see how I feel. Anyone else pop one whenever they think they need to drop the e2 just a bit?

Sure, see if it makes you feel normal. If it does then increase your injection frequency, lower your TRT dosage, or take an AI as a last resort (the goal is to take as few drugs as possible. Chances are you can feel good with less testosterone than you're on now).

 

[buck]

Back to the original question of the thread.

I'll be honest; I think it's silly to worry about. Androgens suppress the immune system more than estrogen. We should treat the symptoms we can clearly see happening.

If we're really concerned about things like immune system, then under the context of hormone replacement we should try to run the minimum amount of hormone required to create quality of life.

I started out taking enough testosterone to put my trough at 1200ng/dL. I've reduced this several times now; down to 1000ng, 900ng and currently sitting at 800ng. I feel exactly the same as I did on 1200ng. Next step is I will try 700ng in 2023.

I think many people are obsessed with numbers they see, vs how they actually feel. I think many people believe they should continue to feel how they did when they first started taking testosterone; let's call this "chasing the high". Some people require higher testosterone to feel normal, but I think most just believe they should continue to feel the way they did during the first few months of TRT. That's not how the body works... if it were, then you would feel like you had raging puberty hormones well into your 30's.

I can agree with that thinking some . I have been on Dr. prescribed TRT for over 20 years and of course have done more then recommended during those years. I think "feel" is something to look at but using it as the main reason for deciding dosage is not the necessarily the best for health. I can't say i feel a lot different between moderate and high normal ranges. And the average bodybuilder guy i would bet would say they feel better at the high end. It would be nice to see a placebo study to see what really works in general. As people are not objective about themselves, even though we like to think so. I try to rely on numbers for the most part then modify things some to make me feel better but do not think that is always best for health and longevity.

 

[Bigbadwolf25]

Sure, see if it makes you feel normal. If it does then increase your injection frequency, lower your TRT dosage, or take an AI as a last resort (the goal is to take as few drugs as possible. Chances are you can feel good with less testosterone than you're on now).

Yea gonna drop test down to 125 mg this week

 

[Send0]

I can agree with that thinking some . I have been on Dr. prescribed TRT for over 20 years and of course have done more then recommended during those years. I think "feel" is something to look at but using it as the main reason for deciding dosage is not the necessarily the best for health. I can't say i feel a lot different between moderate and high normal ranges. And the average bodybuilder guy i would bet would say they feel better at the high end. It would be nice to see a placebo study to see what really works in general. As people are not objective about themselves, even though we like to think so. I try to rely on numbers for the most part then modify things some to make me feel better but do not think that is always best for health and longevity.

I rely on how I feel, and use numbers to confirm my suspicions. I don't do the reverse... Taking the reverse approach has built in bias.