Doc moving me from clomid to TRT…. How to control estrogen?

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Long time no see. As many of you know, I went off steroids almost a year ago to try and recover myself. 2 months ago I was prescribed enclomophine dosed at 12.5 mg everyday. With my follow up bloodwork my levels read as the following

TT- 267 ng/dl (horrible)
Free T- 7.3 (even worse)
LH- 5.4
FSH- 1.9
Sadly, it seems as though my testicles no longer work and the doc thinks I need to go on full blown trt to get me to an optimal range. Just as a last ditch effort, I requested to try 3 more months of the enclomophine at 25 mg along with adding in Tonkga Ali and Fadogia Agrestis to maybe help push the needle

I’ve been able to stay pretty lean while off and my face has never looked better. I don’t look like a bloated slob. However, if I am required to go on TRT, I fear of that “fat moon face” making an ugly return. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to lower estrogen/ control moon face? An AI can be included in my prescription but I just hear a lot of bad things about using AI’s. Hopefully someone can help.
 

TiredandHot

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Long time no see. As many of you know, I went off steroids almost a year ago to try and recover myself. 2 months ago I was prescribed enclomophine dosed at 12.5 mg everyday. With my follow up bloodwork my levels read as the following

TT- 267 ng/dl (horrible)
Free T- 7.3 (even worse)
LH- 5.4
FSH- 1.9
Sadly, it seems as though my testicles no longer work and the doc thinks I need to go on full blown trt to get me to an optimal range. Just as a last ditch effort, I requested to try 3 more months of the enclomophine at 25 mg along with adding in Tonkga Ali and Fadogia Agrestis to maybe help push the needle

I’ve been able to stay pretty lean while off and my face has never looked better. I don’t look like a bloated slob. However, if I am required to go on TRT, I fear of that “fat moon face” making an ugly return. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to lower estrogen/ control moon face? An AI can be included in my prescription but I just hear a lot of bad things about using AI’s. Hopefully someone can help.
So...guys on TRT suffer with a fat moon face now? Lmao. Look who's back @BigBaldBeardGuy.
 

Jonjon

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Most men don’t need an ai on true trt doses of test. The odds are you can get away with trt with no ai.

I would start at around 100mg per week, I’d dose it MWF. Test your levels after 8 weeks and see.

I try to avoid ai but a little won’t kill you if you need it. The trick is to find the highest dose you can get away with without an ai
 
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So...guys on TRT suffer with a fat moon face now? Lmao. Look who's back @BigBaldBeardGuy.
To my knowledge, I didn’t include everyone on TRT. I know there are people who likely have some of the same issues that I’m having. I figured a good starting point would be a reliable forum. No need to be ridiculous
 

TiredandHot

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To my knowledge, I didn’t include everyone on TRT. I know there are people who likely have some of the same issues that I’m having. I figured a good starting point would be a reliable forum. No need to be ridiculous
At TRT levels, estrogen shouldn't be an issue and even require an AI. Based on your previous cycles, were you a high aromatizer or something that would warrant a concern before even starting?
 
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At TRT levels, estrogen shouldn't be an issue and even require an AI. Based on your previous cycles, were you a high aromatizer or something that would warrant a concern before even starting?
Definitely a high aromatizer. 150 mg of test had my face in horrible shape. Thats when I was very strict on with my food. Now I tend to be a little more “free” depending on the occasion. Yet my face is looking as lean as it did when I was 18/19. To me it feels like I don’t respond too kindly to test. It’s something I’ve discussed with the doctor but the only thing he really gives me is “we can give you an AI to combat it”
 

buck

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While most men can manager their E2 levels by lowering their dosage. some men still have elevated E2 especially if they have their T levels at the upper range. How much body fat a person had can make a difference, how old some one is, age has a tendency to cause E2 levels to rise for some. How well the liver is working along with the pathways for converting T to E, of how efficient one is with removing from the body make a difference. I did not see the E2 levels posted. And when posting numbers the range should be included as most blood test numbers are referenced off a range and are not a hard number that is the same from lab to lab.
 
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Long time no see. As many of you know, I went off steroids almost a year ago to try and recover myself. 2 months ago I was prescribed enclomophine dosed at 12.5 mg everyday. With my follow up bloodwork my levels read as the following

TT- 267 ng/dl (horrible)
Free T- 7.3 (even worse)
LH- 5.4
FSH- 1.9
Sadly, it seems as though my testicles no longer work and the doc thinks I need to go on full blown trt to get me to an optimal range. Just as a last ditch effort, I requested to try 3 more months of the enclomophine at 25 mg along with adding in Tonkga Ali and Fadogia Agrestis to maybe help push the needle

I’ve been able to stay pretty lean while off and my face has never looked better. I don’t look like a bloated slob. However, if I am required to go on TRT, I fear of that “fat moon face” making an ugly return. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to lower estrogen/ control moon face? An AI can be included in my prescription but I just hear a lot of bad things about using AI’s. Hopefully someone can help.
Holy shit! Connor the Retard is back! What’s up Connor? Looks like you’re on the right track.

I think I used to repeatedly give you the same advice as I will give you now. “Do what your doctor says.” Take the AI. You shouldn’t need much to control estrogen. Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water or “moon face”. Estrogen causes your body to be more sensitive to sodium. It’s sodium that ultimately causes all those issues. But you can interrupt that by taking the AI. AI is only bad when guys are abusing steroids and piping aI like tic tacs. You will only be taking 0.25 mg to 0.5 mg a week. Don’t worry about that.

If it’s real TRT and you’re not just spinning another retarded story, the bloodwork will tell the story.

Raws are still coming out of China btw. No worries at all. The sky hasn’t fallen.
 

white ape

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Do what doc says. Probably start you off on 100 mg test cyp once a week. Labs after 4 weeks and will adjust from there. Whether you need a higher dose and or AI.

I like once a week shot. Every other week was slightly too long for me. These guys that talk about splitting up 150mg a week into 3 separate shots are crazy as far as I’m concerned. But whatever floats their boat.
 

TomJ

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Do what doc says. Probably start you off on 100 mg test cyp once a week. Labs after 4 weeks and will adjust from there. Whether you need a higher dose and or AI.

I like once a week shot. Every other week was slightly too long for me. These guys that talk about splitting up 150mg a week into 3 separate shots are crazy as far as I’m concerned. But whatever floats their boat.
You can get away with once a week with cup. But that's not going to give you stable levels.

Most people do cyp twice a week as that gives a nice soft curve. A lot of people can't get away with once a week because the swings are too severe.

Typically, of people split their trt more than twice a week, it's for the purposes of micro dosing and sometimes splitting to get the injection volume down low enough to utilize subq administration. But I think that's more pain than it's worth and is it's own whole can of worms.
 

white ape

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You can get away with once a week with cup. But that's not going to give you stable levels.

Most people do cyp twice a week as that gives a nice soft curve. A lot of people can't get away with once a week because the swings are too severe.

Typically, of people split their trt more than twice a week, it's for the purposes of micro dosing and sometimes splitting to get the injection volume down low enough to utilize subq administration. But I think that's more pain than it's worth and is it's own whole can of worms.

I hear you and I get it. More stable levels and all that.

In no way am I here to argue with you but in my experience the go to for doctors is 100mg every other week as a starting point. I knew enough to talk my first doc into once a week. And I’m up to 200mg/week. I feel super stable and can only feel the drop after 10 or 11 days. So that’s my personal experience.

And here is my question(s). 100mg/ twice a week would be 50mg at a time. A 50mg peak would be quite a bit lower than a 100mg peak? Or at that level is it even noticeable? More stable but less effective? Isn’t the half life on cyp like 12 days? So quite a gentle curve compared to other esters?

Again Tom. I respect you. I know my experience. The questions are sincere and not to cause an argument but I like to learn. I personally won’t be pinning more than once a week but that works for me.

Another question - say you do a basic cycle/blast of 500mg/week test cyp. Would you personally break that up into doses or just slam home one a week?
 
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How has your physique changed since u made the decision to come off? slight downsizing?
 
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Estrogen DOES NOT cause bloating or retained water or “moon face”. Estrogen causes your body to be more sensitive to sodium. It’s sodium that ultimately causes all those issues.
I don't know if you got your info through broscience but elevated estrogen in men absolutely can cause the body to retain water and sensitivity to sodium is not a sole mechanism.

The sodium aspect in more pronounced in women's studies.

The truth is high estrogen in males can cause both fluid and sodium retention meaning you can cut out your sodium intake and still retain fluid with high estrogen.

Perhaps you mean to say that more often than not its the sodium that is the culprit. :unsure:
 
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@HeavyW8

EBCD22BA-E0E5-4E24-91F6-F74DF4B97151.jpeg

“pErHaPs yOu mEaN tO sAy tHaT mOrE oFtEn tHaN nOt iTs tHe sOdIuM tHaT iS tHe cUlPrIt….”

Nah. What makes you think that?
 

TomJ

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I hear you and I get it. More stable levels and all that.

In no way am I here to argue with you but in my experience the go to for doctors is 100mg every other week as a starting point. I knew enough to talk my first doc into once a week. And I’m up to 200mg/week. I feel super stable and can only feel the drop after 10 or 11 days. So that’s my personal experience.

And here is my question(s). 100mg/ twice a week would be 50mg at a time. A 50mg peak would be quite a bit lower than a 100mg peak? Or at that level is it even noticeable? More stable but less effective? Isn’t the half life on cyp like 12 days? So quite a gentle curve compared to other esters?

Again Tom. I respect you. I know my experience. The questions are sincere and not to cause an argument but I like to learn. I personally won’t be pinning more than once a week but that works for me.

Another question - say you do a basic cycle/blast of 500mg/week test cyp. Would you personally break that up into doses or just slam home one a week?
Yeah no argument man. Like I said some people can get away with once a week and feel fine.

As far as effectiveness, remember the goal of trt is to get a hypogonadal person back to a mostly constant healthy level, so the more stable things are the better, but some people can't tell the difference, so once a week is totally fine.

For anything more than TRT if say once a week isn't the best move, despite how you feel.

That big of a bolus dose at once is going to cause a large swing over 7 days, so your test levels will vary drastically between day 1 and day 7. If you're someone who needs an AI, dosing and timing it would become very difficult because as serum levels swing so drastically, so will the amount being aromatized.


Again, some people can get away with it without issue, guys have been blasting once a week shots since the beginning, it's just my opinion that is not the best way to go about it.
 

white ape

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Yeah no argument man. Like I said some people can get away with once a week and feel fine.

As far as effectiveness, remember the goal of trt is to get a hypogonadal person back to a mostly constant healthy level, so the more stable things are the better, but some people can't tell the difference, so once a week is totally fine.

For anything more than TRT if say once a week isn't the best move, despite how you feel.

That big of a bolus dose at once is going to cause a large swing over 7 days, so your test levels will vary drastically between day 1 and day 7. If you're someone who needs an AI, dosing and timing it would become very difficult because as serum levels swing so drastically, so will the amount being aromatized.


Again, some people can get away with it without issue, guys have been blasting once a week shots since the beginning, it's just my opinion that is not the best way to go about it.

Awesome response. Thank you! I agree with you about the difference in why someone is using TRT vs someone who is going on cycle. I’ve never gone on cycle or blast so I don’t have any personal experience with that.

Another personal experience of mine. When I first went on TRT I really need AI. Now it seems like I don’t need it at all. Not sure if that’s normal or not but that has been my experience. I’ve played with it where I didn’t take my arimadex for a couple months and then reintroduced it. Unfortunately I did do labs with that but I didn’t notice any significant changes in mood or behavior.

Not to make this about me but maybe OP would like to hear other’s experiences since he seems to be worried about going on TRT.

In summary for the OP. Work with your doc. Everyone has a different experience with TRT. Work with the doc and figure out what works best for you. Good luck
 

TomJ

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Awesome response. Thank you! I agree with you about the difference in why someone is using TRT vs someone who is going on cycle. I’ve never gone on cycle or blast so I don’t have any personal experience with that.

Another personal experience of mine. When I first went on TRT I really need AI. Now it seems like I don’t need it at all. Not sure if that’s normal or not but that has been my experience. I’ve played with it where I didn’t take my arimadex for a couple months and then reintroduced it. Unfortunately I did do labs with that but I didn’t notice any significant changes in mood or behavior.

Not to make this about me but maybe OP would like to hear other’s experiences since he seems to be worried about going on TRT.

In summary for the OP. Work with your doc. Everyone has a different experience with TRT. Work with the doc and figure out what works best for you. Good luck
if youn lost a decent amount of BF since you started TRT you may aromatise at a lower rate now, thus not needing an AI. or if you were basing your need for an AI off of mental/mood symptoms early on, it could have been a product of test itself or the sudden increase in total androgens, rather than estrogen related. now that youve had mostly stable levels for a while, spiking androgen levels arent happening and causing the mood shifts that some people get.
 

white ape

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if youn lost a decent amount of BF since you started TRT you may aromatise at a lower rate now, thus not needing an AI. or if you were basing your need for an AI off of mental/mood symptoms early on, it could have been a product of test itself or the sudden increase in total androgens, rather than estrogen related. now that youve had mostly stable levels for a while, spiking androgen levels arent happening and causing the mood shifts that some people get.

Great. Yeah I felt it in my mood the 4th week in but also had labs that week which verified high aromatise. That’s was on 100mg/week. Now 200mg/week and mood and labs look good. Been on TRT for years now though.
 

TomJ

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yeah sounds like your aromatization rate is just lower now, for whatever reason
 

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