Joint help!!!

[BustaCapps]

Chances are that you crashed your E2. Lay off it for a bit and your joints will feel better without having to add anything extra. What amount of AI did you take?

There are several ways to combat high E2. You can lower your weekly amount of Test, or inject long ester test ED or EOD... both will result in lower E2. Go get an E2 ultrasensitive lab test done about 2-3 weeks after doing this. If lab work indicates you still need an AI after this, then start with a low dose; something like 10mg - 12.5mg of aromasin 2x per week.

I’m not sure I completely crashed it…I already feel a lot better. I took 25mg a day for several days. For now I’m gonna take 12.5 mg when I pin which is 2x per week. I was told the same thing about long ester ED which will make the E2 level out. I’m gonna either drop the level of test because I’m stocked up on test e and I have some test c but not enough and add NPP or just order some more test c. The gyno symptoms have calmed down so could I do the test now?


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[OZinPHIL]

I don’t know if I crashed it but if I didn’t I was close…I had low mood and achy joints…I took 25mg per day for several days. I’m gonna try and get by with 12.5 on the days I pin…(2xweek)


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You've tanked your e2 bro
Take a low dose of dbol for a few days if you want to get it fixed quickly but otherwise it will come good, just have to ride it out mate
DO NOT TAKE ANY MORE AI, you shouldn't touch them unless you actually get symptoms then try 12.5mg a day for 2-3 days then 12.5mg on injection days for 2 weeks or so, like I said ai's need time to work

 

[Sicwun88]

Yeah the gyno started and I prob took too much bc that scares me. Not an extreme amount but it’s calmed down so I can ease up on it now. Thanks man.


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Fish oil & Deca!
2 hip replacements?
Tht prolly is more of the problem
Than the Al?

 

[BustaCapps]

You've tanked your e2 bro
Take a low dose of dbol for a few days if you want to get it fixed quickly but otherwise it will come good, just have to ride it out mate
DO NOT TAKE ANY MORE AI, you shouldn't touch them unless you actually get symptoms then try 12.5mg a day for 2-3 days then 12.5mg on injection days for 2 weeks or so, like I said ai's need time to work

I bounced back pretty quick…I’m gonna try the 12.5mg on pinning days and adjust if needed.


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[BustaCapps]

Fish oil & Deca!
2 hip replacements?
Tht prolly is more of the problem
Than the Al?

Well of course the hip is a problem I was just saying that because of that it’s made it hurt worse if you get what I’m saying. The AI made all my joints achy but bc of the hip problem it made it much worse than the others.


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[CJ]

I bounced back pretty quick…I’m gonna try the 12.5mg on pinning days and adjust if needed.


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Try the day after your injections. I've always heard the half lives line up better that way.

 

[OZinPHIL]

Fish oil & Deca!
2 hip replacements?
Tht prolly is more of the problem
Than the Al?

The ai was 100% the problem mate and deca won't help tanked e2

 

[OZinPHIL]

I bounced back pretty quick…I’m gonna try the 12.5mg on pinning days and adjust if needed.


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I wouldn't be going near an ai for 3-4 weeks at least mate , it takes longer than 2 days to bounce back, start using nolva 20mg on pin days as ai's are no good for you. Nolva gets rid of any old or current gyno at the same time at 20mg a day for 3 months, much better then an ai

 

[Migmaster]

My knees, hips, ankles all have ton of wear and tear from steel industry. Deca made me feel 20 years younger but damn I kept a swollen head for 10 weeks of the cycle

 

[OZinPHIL]

My knees, hips, ankles all have ton of wear and tear from steel industry. Deca made me feel 20 years younger but damn I kept a swollen head for 10 weeks of the cycle

Yeah deca will do that but it won't help crashed e2 lol

 

[MuscleMedicineMD]

Much of the advice given by the members is solid; Joint health is a replete search on UG and has been covered with great suggestions here, like:

--> fish oil 3-13g (yes 13G) of fish oil ED to reduce INFLAMMATION: similar to Turmeric which is excellent as a powder in warm water with Apple Cider Vinegar. this allows you to mega dose this compound: similar anti-inflammatory supps. MSM, GC, and Collagen peptides-->Peptide products include specific key AAs for collagen synthesis and repair, not found in WHEY protein.
---> MK677 is also used by my clients and have reported excellent joint relief (just dont pay crazy website prices per gram, or worse liquid at 750mg total/bottle). several do 15mg AM/15mg PM.
-->injectable/HGH would also be restorative for increased Collagen synthesis & has become affordable.
--> Nandrolone: Seems to be the only AAS that I've read research backing its anti-inflammatory effects. The member who runs the Articles section here has posted an article about this before if you would like to do a search. All other research on this topic reports other AAS negatively effecting joint health, joint recovery post-surgery etc.
Best,
MuscleMedicineMD

 

[OZinPHIL]

Much of the advice given by the members is solid; Joint health is a replete search on UG and has been covered with great suggestions here, like:

--> fish oil 3-13g (yes 13G) of fish oil ED to reduce INFLAMMATION: similar to Turmeric which is excellent as a powder in warm water with Apple Cider Vinegar. this allows you to mega dose this compound: similar anti-inflammatory supps. MSM, GC, and Collagen peptides-->Peptide products include specific key AAs for collagen synthesis and repair, not found in WHEY protein.
---> MK677 is also used by my clients and have reported excellent joint relief (just dont pay crazy website prices per gram, or worse liquid at 750mg total/bottle). several do 15mg AM/15mg PM.
-->injectable/HGH would also be restorative for increased Collagen synthesis & has become affordable.
--> Nandrolone: Seems to be the only AAS that I've read research backing its anti-inflammatory effects. The member who runs the Articles section here has posted an article about this before if you would like to do a search. All other research on this topic reports other AAS negatively effecting joint health, joint recovery post-surgery etc.
Best,
MuscleMedicineMD

Yeah bro I take between 10-15g of fish oil daily depending on how much Flaxseed oil I add to meals

 

[MuscleMedicineMD]

I’m not sure I completely crashed it…I already feel a lot better. I took 25mg a day for several days. For now I’m gonna take 12.5 mg when I pin which is 2x per week. I was told the same thing about long ester ED which will make the E2 level out.
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Since this July has been so busy, I havent had time to fulfill my obligation to answer medical questions/related discussions (I saw this thread which turned out not to be a 'true' med inquiry), but decided anyway to add to the suggestions (reviewed above) & highlight important points here, not otherwise discussed (may start friendly debate/opinions/open conversation:

1.The AI that you are taking, Aromasin @12.5-25mg/d , is a suicide inhibitor type I, and although it does reach highest blood concentrations in 2.3-3.1hrs per its literature, this medication doesn't reach full or peak aromatase enzyme inhibition until later, roughly occurring @ 2-3 DAYS..
So OZinPhil is right on, this drug will take time to have its specific effects, plus Estrogens clearance.
but..
Once irreversibly inhibited, your enzyme levels and therefor E, will remain low until enough AI is eliminated (t1/2: 1day) & enzyme is remade (Tr&Tr takes time). less 'harsh' medicines remove this potential problem.

2. Yes AI's, type 1 or 2, have their place, particularly if you are experiencing "Global" estrogenic side effects (see #4) but what about a single localized symptom?

-Estrogen is extremely important physiologically for optimal functioning, growth, plus is bone, neuro, and cardioprotective. Therefor many users would rather let estrogen sides be addressed via modulation/blockade (ie. Nolvadex, Reloxifene) if ones' main symptom is breast related (ie. ichy, painful, puffy nipples). Such signs & symptoms often occur 1st and at lower E levels then more diffuse symptoms, and do require a prompt but non-emergent response (ie. act, dont panic).

-Nolvadex breast-tissue drug concentration is 10x that of systemic circulation, and its metabolites more than 70x, allowing for tissue directed effects vs. AI suicide inhibitors. Thus, they offer a quicker, much less expensive, as well as less systemically "harsh"/harmful solution if breast is really the only negative symptom experienced by the patient OR as an adjunct therapy if one experiences a sudden sx flare-up (vs. doubling your AI dose). lastly, Nolvadex has positive effects on LDL Cholesterol and Bone Mineral Density.

Now, when comparing those 2 SERMs (they are completely distinct structurally and vary in 3 important ways) both relatively quickly reach peak levels in just 3-6 hrs for Tamoxifen and 0.5-6hrs for Raloxifene where they can then partially antagonize ER in breast tissue, forming SERM-metabolite:ER complex, lasting up to 2 days. Raloxifene half life is much shorter than Tamoxifen, roughly 1.5 days (so tapper, dont suddenly DC).
*Due to slow elimination via high protein binding rates, only a short course (effect is dose dependent) may be needed to halt symptoms with Tamoxifen while you adjust dose or schedule.

3. Injecting E3D, maybe EOD: smaller peak concentrations obviously lowers aromatization rates; but ED injections of a long ester like Test E/C to lower aromatization rates, is likely overkill imo, unless using very high doses and you havent reached steady-state concentration (ie, 4-5 half-lives).
Otherwise the difference in [blood-T] peaks is small and not enough to overwhelm our natural SHBG blood protein surplus..
It's the large fluctuations our bodies cannot keep up with, leaving a larger proportion free temporarily to be bound by as much Aromatase as is free itself, looking around for a substrate! 5-AR is lookin too
This also means, you may require less AI at wk 8 vs. wk 3.

4..Having an AI "on hand" may be useful IF you start noticing any true systemic symptoms of high E: ** (Erectile Dysfunction, dec. libido, Bloating, fatigue at the gym, Night sweats, insomnia etc.)**
(Some just have sensitive nipples often noted in puberty but do not experience clear High E sx).
** AI's do have advantages, they are certainly stronger! if the goal is very low E, contest day dryness, they are essential. 1 specific selling point on paper (that starts with 'i')? where are the guru's?

5. 12.5mg Aromasin, taken Day BEFORE Test injection, is best.
Effects from that single dose will peak blood concentration in 3hrs, BUT peak in effectiveness of reducing Aromatase activity (the goal) will occur between in 2-3 DAYS. Check any graph of Test C/E (is effected by inj location, oil viscosity etc) you will see levels peak between 10.5-24hr and slowly decrease. Peak enzyme inh. should precede slightly, peak Test blood conc.

Best,
MuscleMedicineMD

 

[MuscleMedicineMD]

I’m gonna either drop the level of test because I’m stocked up on test e and I have some test c but not enough and add NPP or just order some more test c. The gyno symptoms have calmed down so could I do the test now?

Busta; this last part is confusing. IF you have plenty of Test E (assuming its excellent if you stocked up?) why would you drop the Test or need to order more Test C?

Just start using the Test E in its place (read sticky on "Esters" if needed), keep the Test where it is (dont sweat the tiny differences in Mol.weight, ester cleavage etc.), and if you would like for jt. relief and better muscle gains (great synergy) add DECA or NPP (all we are discussing here is pharmacokenetics + a little brosci).
** NPP250 is def one of my favorites which you can easily do 2x/wk or EOD (as I do it, though other factors are involved, if are doing less total MLs/wk you could do it all in 2shots/wk).

Note: NPP Kenetics graph shows the SLOW decrease over 0-3.5 days,
a larger drop around day 4, then a complete drop at day 5.
Meaning= EOD is best from a blood concentration POV, but maybe not logistically etc. So unless you are getting paid to look like a BBer, it may not be necessary to fuss over the 1.5day difference btw injections, but thats totally your call.

Nandrolone DOES interact wkly with Aromatase and convert to relatively small amounts of Estrogen at lower dosages. More importantly it is a progestin (it behaves like/has progestogenic properties) and thus will augment the ER, often by making downstream receptor actions more efficient leading to an overall increased Sensitivity!
**Having a Binding affinity nearly 1/4 of Progesterone itself is significant.
19 yrs ago, during my 1st 200test/200deca cycle (2nd overall), it was certainly apparent too! E & P Signs/Sx galore lol and I am NOT very sensitive to high E levels. So if you feel you are, just be aware of this interplay as similar E levels results in significantly greater effects!

Hopefully my responses gives you some things to look into further,
Best,
MuscleMedicine, MD

ps. It's all your choice, but getting ultra sensitive E2 test is not necessary at this point, esp if that is the only value your interested at the moment. Medically in endo you treat symptoms not numbers, so if symptomatically you feel good, it really doesnt add much help for the effort.

 

[OZinPHIL]

Since this July has been so busy, I havent had time to fulfill my obligation to answer medical questions/related discussions (I saw this thread which turned out not to be a 'true' med inquiry), but decided anyway to add to the suggestions (reviewed above) & highlight important points here, not otherwise discussed (may start friendly debate/opinions/open conversation:

1.The AI that you are taking, Aromasin @12.5-25mg/d , is a suicide inhibitor type I, and although it does reach highest blood concentrations in 2.3-3.1hrs per its literature, this medication doesn't reach full or peak aromatase enzyme inhibition until later, roughly occurring @ 2-3 DAYS..
So OZinPhil is right on, this drug will take time to have its specific effects, plus Estrogens clearance.
but..
Once irreversibly inhibited, your enzyme levels and therefor E, will remain low until enough AI is eliminated (t1/2: 1day) & enzyme is remade (Tr&Tr takes time). less 'harsh' medicines remove this potential problem.

2. Yes AI's, type 1 or 2, have their place, particularly if you are experiencing "Global" estrogenic side effects (see #4) but what about a single localized symptom?

-Estrogen is extremely important physiologically for optimal functioning, growth, plus is bone, neuro, and cardioprotective. Therefor many users would rather let estrogen sides be addressed via modulation/blockade (ie. Nolvadex, Reloxifene) if ones' main symptom is breast related (ie. ichy, painful, puffy nipples). Such signs & symptoms often occur 1st and at lower E levels then more diffuse symptoms, and do require a prompt but non-emergent response (ie. act, dont panic).

-Nolvadex breast-tissue drug concentration is 10x that of systemic circulation, and its metabolites more than 70x, allowing for tissue directed effects vs. AI suicide inhibitors. Thus, they offer a quicker, much less expensive, as well as less systemically "harsh"/harmful solution if breast is really the only negative symptom experienced by the patient OR as an adjunct therapy if one experiences a sudden sx flare-up (vs. doubling your AI dose). lastly, Nolvadex has positive effects on LDL Cholesterol and Bone Mineral Density.

Now, when comparing those 2 SERMs (they are completely distinct structurally and vary in 3 important ways) both relatively quickly reach peak levels in just 3-6 hrs for Tamoxifen and 0.5-6hrs for Raloxifene where they can then partially antagonize ER in breast tissue, forming SERM-metabolite:ER complex, lasting up to 2 days. Raloxifene half life is much shorter than Tamoxifen, roughly 1.5 days (so tapper, dont suddenly DC).
*Due to slow elimination via high protein binding rates, only a short course (effect is dose dependent) may be needed to halt symptoms with Tamoxifen while you adjust dose or schedule.

3. Injecting E3D, maybe EOD: smaller peak concentrations obviously lowers aromatization rates; but ED injections of a long ester like Test E/C to lower aromatization rates, is likely overkill imo, unless using very high doses and you havent reached steady-state concentration (ie, 4-5 half-lives).
Otherwise the difference in [blood-T] peaks is small and not enough to overwhelm our natural SHBG blood protein surplus..
It's the large fluctuations our bodies cannot keep up with, leaving a larger proportion free temporarily to be bound by as much Aromatase as is free itself, looking around for a substrate! 5-AR is lookin too
This also means, you may require less AI at wk 8 vs. wk 3.

4..Having an AI "on hand" may be useful IF you start noticing any true systemic symptoms of high E: ** (Erectile Dysfunction, dec. libido, Bloating, fatigue at the gym, Night sweats, insomnia etc.)**
(Some just have sensitive nipples often noted in puberty but do not experience clear High E sx).
** AI's do have advantages, they are certainly stronger! if the goal is very low E, contest day dryness, they are essential. 1 specific selling point on paper (that starts with 'i')? where are the guru's?

5. 12.5mg Aromasin, taken Day BEFORE Test injection, is best.
Effects from that single dose will peak blood concentration in 3hrs, BUT peak in effectiveness of reducing Aromatase activity (the goal) will occur between in 2-3 DAYS. Check any graph of Test C/E (is effected by inj location, oil viscosity etc) you will see levels peak between 10.5-24hr and slowly decrease. Peak enzyme inh. should precede slightly, peak Test blood conc.

Best,
MuscleMedicineMD

Very well said, you definitely are a very knowledgeable person, one question while on the subject, I've just started my 3 months of nolva at 20mg ed for 3 months for an older gyno lump, when will i start noticing the lump get smaller mate?

 

[CJ]

Try the day after your injections. I've always heard the half lives line up better that way.

5. 12.5mg Aromasin, taken Day BEFORE Test injection, is best.
Effects from that single dose will peak blood concentration in 3hrs, BUT peak in effectiveness of reducing Aromatase activity (the goal) will occur between in 2-3 DAYS. Check any graph of Test C/E (is effected by inj location, oil viscosity etc) you will see levels peak between 10.5-24hr and slowly decrease. Peak enzyme inh. should precede slightly, peak Test blood conc.

Best,
MuscleMedicineMD

I stand corrected, thank you sir.

 

[MuscleMedicineMD]

Very well said, you definitely are a very knowledgeable person, one question while on the subject, I've just started my 3 months of nolva at 20mg ed for 3 months for an older gyno lump, when will i start noticing the lump get smaller mate?

we'll continue with our current PMs to include specifics to you, I would just need to get a basic history about yourself, how old is this "old lump", current hormone usage, past antiestrogen therapy experience? I dont want our convo to take over BUSTAs thread.

Briefly, I would only be taking Nolva to prevent further stimulation & growth while on cycle. TRT patients should be at a dose that doesnt aggravate it, and if it is even w/in a normal E range, being that HRT is a very LT therapy, I would strongly consider getting surgery if its truly bothersome esp. if BBing med use continues to be in your future. Otherwise you are looking at taking an add. medication everyday whether AI or SERM, and Nolva will cause additional liver strain.
1st I have never treated a gyno nodule, nor have I had one personally. I speak from my education in cell histology and pathology only.
If taken, while not on any replacement, it will likely shrink the lump by 45% or more (unnoticeable?) but in time may recover a larger% of what was lost, as full E exposure returns. How long? cytosolic reduction will initially occur w/in the 1st month, followed by structural reduction the next 2mo.
Individual Drug response/tissue sensitivity varies, so outcomes cannot be predicted.
talk soon,
Best,
MuscleMedicine, MD

 

[lfod14]

I'm another fan of Deca, been on it for years. If you want a non AAS shotgun approach try Animal's FLEX.

 

[69nites]

I stand corrected, thank you sir.

No, you were correct.

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Abstract. Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Arom

academic.oup.com

 

[CJ]

No, you were correct.

Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males

Abstract. Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Arom

academic.oup.com

That was the basis of my thought process.... "Maximal estradiol suppression of 62 ± 14% was observed at 12 h." Paired with....

Hormone kinetics after intramuscular testosterone cypionate - PubMed

There have not been reports analyzing in detail the reproductive hormone changes in hypogonadal men after usual therapeutic injections of testosterone cypionate (TC). In 11 hypogonadal men 200 mg intramuscular TC caused a threefold rise in serum T (peak values, days 2 to 5), a 33% increase in %...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"...and a threefold rise of estradiol (days 2 to 7)."

I was thinking match up the peak AI effect with the beginning of the Estradiol conversion peak.

I could be wrong in my thinking though, I am FAR from being an authority on this.