SCIROXX - Real or Hype?

[sciroxx]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post here lab tests from other forums, I've had dozens of random lab tests from customers (on the GH, the IGF1-lr3 or IGF1-DES can't be tested on a serum test), all the tests are flawless, the Somastim (GH) was also tested by 2 major organizations independently to exceed pharma grade standards. The Somedin (IGF1) is cheaper to manufacture actually, and we produce it on the same facility as the GH in a western country. This is the difference between us and most if not all internet sources, we produce.

If any one knows of any lab he trusts send there a sample from Cobra or any customer and I'll pay for the tests.

Anyhow I PMed you few days ago and asked if you like to trial it, so far no response from u

 

[DreamChaser]

Glad I didn't miss this

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Doc...what are your thoughts on igf?

My personal opinion is in that link Cobra.

I agree that IGF1 plays a role in both anabolism and anti-catabolism and plays a role In the mTor and AMPK pathways. This is to say, it's a critical component of both anabolic and anti-catabolic processes but only in a certain window. Having supraphysiological levels of it has yet to be proven to be beneficial towards hypertrophy. I posted a few studies/excerpts in that link that lend evidence to this opinion. Maybe there might be some synergy when AAS, HGH, and insulin are all added alongside the IGF1 but then at that point you have to question which compound is providing the results when you're running that much shit. Can you even be sure the IGF1 is doing anything? I've also seen some evidence showing how igf1 acts differently dependin upon the age of the person in question. That is, the effects in children is vastly different than that of adults.

Bottom line I think it's just not something that will do much or anything at all. If you're running good HGH you'll already have high levels of IGF1 and HGH has some proven benefits independent of the IGF1 pathway. My recommendation would be do spend the money elsewhere on other compounds. I'm not sold on IGF 1

 

[sciroxx]

Sorry to interfere repeatedly, a simple search on medical base literature reveals many real life experience and evidence on patients who requires anabolic/anti-catabolic treatment, which is the closest application to our goals, that supports the advantage in using IGF1 alone and along with GH. With respect to DocDePanda opinion I do estimate based on my experience that GH is more fundamental product then IGF1, but using both has a distinct synergistic effect and may show metabolic, anabolic and anti catabolic advantages over using GH by itself
-------------------
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466

GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

--------------------------------------
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Administration of growth factors such as growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) is being investigated as a strategy to promote nitrogen accretion in catabolic patients who may require total parenteral nutrition (TPN). IGF-I has advantages compared with GH because IGF-I enhances insulin sensitivity, is effective in conditions of GH resistance, and selectively stimulates the gastrointestinal and immune systems.

METHODS:

Experiments were conducted to evaluate the anabolic and metabolic effects associated with administration of recombinant human GH or IGF-I in rats subjected to clinically relevant stress and maintained with TPN.

RESULTS:

Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.

CONCLUSIONS:

Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Doc...what are your thoughts on igf?

Sorry Cobra, that link was to the HGH forum here.

This is the link I should have posted

https://www.ugbodybuilding.com/threads/22196-GH-IGF1-and-should-I-combine-them

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Sorry to interfere repeatedly, a simple search on medical base literature reveals many real life experience and evidence on patients who requires anabolic/anti-catabolic treatment, which is the closest application to our goals, that supports the advantage in using IGF1 alone and along with GH. With respect to DocDePanda opinion I do estimate based on my experience that GH is more fundamental product then IGF1, but using both has a distinct synergistic effect and may show metabolic, anabolic and anti catabolic advantages over using GH by itself
-------------------
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466

GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

--------------------------------------
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Administration of growth factors such as growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) is being investigated as a strategy to promote nitrogen accretion in catabolic patients who may require total parenteral nutrition (TPN). IGF-I has advantages compared with GH because IGF-I enhances insulin sensitivity, is effective in conditions of GH resistance, and selectively stimulates the gastrointestinal and immune systems.

METHODS:

Experiments were conducted to evaluate the anabolic and metabolic effects associated with administration of recombinant human GH or IGF-I in rats subjected to clinically relevant stress and maintained with TPN.

RESULTS:

Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.

CONCLUSIONS:

Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.

I'm not saying you can't be right about IGF 1, just that there isn't enough evidence to sway me as of yet. Until that point I cannot make a leap of logic to support it in good conscience. It's entirely possible I'm wrong but I don't see enough evidence to disprove my opinion and prove yours.

I've posted already about you point on patients who need anabolic/catabolic treatment. Yes igf 1 helped catholic patients but interestingly enough, it did nothing for non-catabolic patients who are an even closer application to our goals than your catabolic patients.

Also, here is the human study I'd post to counter your two rat studies sir:

Despite the observations of an effect of GH and IGF-I on protein synthesis, the fact remains that gains in muscle mass are not observed in healthy subjects after long-term GH administration so any benefits are unlikely to be due to muscle mass gains. In the GH plus exercise groups, circulating IGF-I levels and fat-free mass were consistently increased in comparison to placebo groups. Thus, it is possible to extrapolate that increasing circulating IGF-I would also be without consequence for muscle mass in healthy humans. Administration of IGF-I acutely activates muscle protein synthesis (Fryburg et al., 1995), but similarly to GH a 1-year administration did not result in increased lean body mass (Friedlander et al., 2001). The effects of GH on fat-free mass may be due to water retention, which is a known side effect of GH administration, or to an increase in soft tissue due to the stimulatory effects of GH on collagen synthesis.

In summary, normal GH/IGF-I function does have a role in the development and maintenance of muscle mass, as gathered from evidence in GH-deficient patients, burn patients, hypophysectomized animals, and animal models in which GH receptor and IGF-IR activity are lacking. GH or IGF-I administration have, however, no proven benefits for muscle mass in healthy subjects in whom GH function is normal (Figure 3). In most animal studies, GH is administered while the animals are still growing and this may confound the results in comparison to administration in fully grown animals. In addition, the species differences between rodents and humans in the functioning of the GH/IGF-I axis must be taken into account. Studies with transgenic and knockout animals are also complicated by the fact that the embryonic development of the tissue can be affected and this can have different consequences to altering gene expression once the animal has reached maturity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439518/#!po=15.3061

Regardless of where we differ in opinion, I respect your efforts to use science and objective based evidence to argue your position. For that you have earned my respect.

 

[sciroxx]

Thank u doc, for the info and the explanation, there are many parameters involved, for instance these individuals weren't engaged in any exercise regime, didn't alter diet etc'
I agree that using GH by itself is not as effective as one would expect, combining AAS with GH as well as with IGF1 will change the picture, and these have a very pronounced synergistic effect

 

[DocDePanda187123]

Thank u doc, for the info and the explanation, there are many parameters involved, for instance these individuals weren't engaged in any exercise regime, didn't alter diet etc'
I agree that using GH by itself is not as effective as one would expect, combining AAS with GH as well as with IGF1 will change the picture, and these have a very pronounced synergistic effect

I agree there's no perfect study on this and it's not the easiest thing to draw extrapolations from the available studies.

As to your point about patients not training or not dieting etc I would argue that it's still more applicable than the rat studies you cited here simply bc studying something on humans will always more closely replicate things than something studied on another species. Also, there are a couple studies that to my knowledge show testosterone increases muscle mass and strength without concomittant exercise.

I also believe HGH is more synergistic with insulin use than with IGF1.

 

[gymrat827]

Sorry to interfere repeatedly, a simple search on medical base literature reveals many real life experience and evidence on patients who requires anabolic/anti-catabolic treatment, which is the closest application to our goals, that supports the advantage in using IGF1 alone and along with GH. With respect to DocDePanda opinion I do estimate based on my experience that GH is more fundamental product then IGF1, but using both has a distinct synergistic effect and may show metabolic, anabolic and anti catabolic advantages over using GH by itself
-------------------
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466

GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.

--------------------------------------
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Administration of growth factors such as growth hormone (GH) and insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I) is being investigated as a strategy to promote nitrogen accretion in catabolic patients who may require total parenteral nutrition (TPN). IGF-I has advantages compared with GH because IGF-I enhances insulin sensitivity, is effective in conditions of GH resistance, and selectively stimulates the gastrointestinal and immune systems.

METHODS:

Experiments were conducted to evaluate the anabolic and metabolic effects associated with administration of recombinant human GH or IGF-I in rats subjected to clinically relevant stress and maintained with TPN.

RESULTS:

Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.

CONCLUSIONS:

Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.

when have you ever heard of a cancer patient, aids, Whatever X muscle wasting disease and the person gets put on IGF instead of GH......???

 

[sciroxx]

when have you ever heard of a cancer patient, aids, Whatever X muscle wasting disease and the person gets put on IGF instead of GH......???

The experiment above checked the effect of IGF1 by itself and in combination with GH on such patient, but yes the GH is the conventional treatment for such conditions, IGF1 is still in the exploring level, and actually clinically used only in rare conditions of dwarfism

 

[Cobra Strike]

I always love reading scientific arguments. My arguments are always boring/ignorant and go something like....Whatever you nerd jockey take your science and shove it because Im right anyway" lol

So yesterday was Sunday. The day of rest. No training, No gh, No IGF, only diet and football...which suckd ass

Today was legs. 50mcg in each quad. Typical leg work out. One thing I think I have noticed is that I am looking thicker and fuller lately and the cut is comin along nicely. It wont be long now until my shoulder veins are just out without having to work out or flex. My stomach is starting to flatten as well. Im not sure if any of this has anything to do with the synergy of the IGF and the gh or if its simply from the diet and AAS?

Im definitely loving this cut though. My initial goal was just to drop to 10% and then hit the bulk but right now I am just enjoying the tightening up so 8% is now the goal. Never seen my traps so dam shredded before either....and my girl is starting to act all jealous and shit. Asking me how I know girls that are fb friend requesting me ect ect. To be honest these girls are just people I have met like other business or marketing contacts shit like that..not sexual AT ALL! I think the cuts are getting to her now that Im not just a big smelly hairy ogre anymore..still smelly though! On that note here is a little story about last night.

We are chillin on the couch watching the new episode of Walking Dead (which pissed me the fuk off when they (SPOILER ALERT) showed glenn getting killed and his eye is all busted out then trying to make rick cut his own boys arm off...I would have lost it and just tried to kill that prick even though I would have gotten killed...never would I cut my boys arm off..everyone would have to die.) Ok sorry for the tangent....anyway we had a blanket over us and I dropped a lil silent bomb....we had like 10 minutes left of the show so figured it would dissipate. After the show I couldn't really smell it. I went to the basement to chug some var and winni, came back up stairs and got my ass chewed out. She said shes sick of smelling shit everywhere in the house and that im fkn nasty and she don't want to touch me anymore. I just ignored her. I mean what am I going to do? Its natural I cant help it. So today I sent her flowers with a note that said "these are to make the first part of your day better and hopefully make up for the second part of the day (when shes home with me) lol ya I know how to make her smile

Ok well time to get back to work...there is the extended and TMI update for the day!!

 

[tunafisherman]

you have dedication I do not....not only a huge blast for over 6 months, but 22 eggs a day??? My wife would kill me if I ate that many...haha.

Subbing to this to see your report and progress.

 

[Cobra Strike]

you have dedication I do not....not only a huge blast for over 6 months, but 22 eggs a day??? My wife would kill me if I ate that many...haha.

Subbing to this to see your report and progress.

I don't eat them bro...I drink them. Muscleegg.com EGG10 gets you 10%off which means free shipping basically lol The pumpkin spice is to die for!!!

Its not really dedication to me. Its more like slavery. I am more scared to lose what I have then dedicated to keep it so I keep busting ass to keep it. Which then I think well if I am going to do this then I may as well fkn do it or I am just wasting my time which is part of the slavery that makes me seem dedicated...not sure if you can follow all that but ya my head is messed up and I think I took to much Adderall tonight lol

 

[Cobra Strike]

Lats today. 50mcg in each. They are sore right now

 

[Cobra Strike]

Trained shoulder yesterday and chest today...50mcg in each muscle. The thread is going to become boring because not a whole lot changes that fast. This is why I don't do logs...your reporting the same thing everyday lol

both these workouts were normal. Sunday I will take measurements again. Next week I will be getting the IGF test done on the somastims...cant wait to see those results!!!

 

[gh0st]

ill be following this!

i love peptides and lr3 i'd love to put together some IGF mass spec testing! if we could get some guys to donate and if anyone else would be interested in this besides myself!

a lot of fake IGF out there.

 

[gymrat827]

Trained shoulder yesterday and chest today...50mcg in each muscle. The thread is going to become boring because not a whole lot changes that fast. This is why I don't do logs...your reporting the same thing everyday lol

both these workouts were normal. Sunday I will take measurements again. Next week I will be getting the IGF test done on the somastims...cant wait to see those results!!!

im interested in that test

 

[NbleSavage]

x2 - looking forward to the Somastims lab work.

 

[Cobra Strike]

Hit biceps and forearms yesterday. Had some good pumps but nothing above ordinary.

Got my requisition papers from PML and I go in Tuesday morning. Should have the results back by Friday.

 

[sciroxx]

Hit biceps and forearms yesterday. Had some good pumps but nothing above ordinary.

Got my requisition papers from PML and I go in Tuesday morning. Should have the results back by Friday.

It's snot in the pump bro, it's in the mirror bro - update us with your progress and measurements

Thank u for the consistent honest feedback