Short Esters for Long Term Use

[Koensayr_s3]

I am wondering why someone would choose to use a steroid hormone attached to an ester with a short half life indefinitely, or for a long period of time (12+ weeks) as opposed to a compound attached to an ester with a relatively longer half life.

For instance, I have talked to and heard from individuals people using test prop or npp as their HRT / cruise. Why not use testosterone cypionate + nandrolone decanoate instead? It seems like one could get away with less shots and less overall oil (as the longer esters typically come in higher concentrations)? These individuals are never coming "off" so, why the short ester?

In other cases, I've seen individuals use compounds such as drostanolone propionate + tren acetate for the entirety of their 12+ week anabolic cycles. I can somewhat understand this logic as at the start of the blast, the compounds will reach peak blood serum concentrations more quickly, and will dissipate more quickly when the person returns back to cruise (or pct). Is there perhaps some other reason I am missing, though?

Appreciate your insight!

 

[TODAY]

Shorter esters make it easier to titrate dosages

Shorter esters carry less molecular weight, therefore offering marginally more hormone/mg

Short esters clear faster, making it easier to abort a cycle in case of extreme side-effects

Short esters (pinned more frequently) can lead to more stable blood concentrations of hormone which can potentially lead to fewer side-effects.

 

[SFGiants]

It's a preference, I choose Cyp for the never come off and when I did cycle I'd add short esters.

 

[Koensayr_s3]

Shorter esters make it easier to titrate dosages

Shorter esters carry less molecular weight, therefore offering marginally more hormone/mg

Short esters clear faster, making it easier to abort a cycle in case of extreme side-effects

Short esters (pinned more frequently) can lead to more stable blood concentrations of hormone which can potentially lead to fewer side-effects.

Thank you for this answer!

@TODAY what do you think about pinning longer esters more frequently? My TRT prescription has me pinning 60mg test cyp every other day for a total of 210mg testosterone per week. Would I be better off (from a hypertrophy / performance standpoint) by using a similar amount of total hormone via testosterone attached to the proionate ester (let's say I adjust the test prop intake down just slightly to account for molecular weight)?

 

[TODAY]

Thank you for this answer!

@TODAY what do you think about pinning longer esters more frequently? My TRT prescription has me pinning 60mg test cyp every other day for a total of 210mg testosterone per week. Would I be better off (from a hypertrophy / performance standpoint) by using a similar amount of total hormone via testosterone attached to the proionate ester (let's say I adjust the test prop intake down just slightly to account for molecular weight)?

I prefer to pin enanthate and cypionate 3x/wk, but the difference between 3x and 2x/wk is pretty small

 

[TODAY]

Plenty of people like to small amounts of prop ED for TRT, but I doubt you'd see much advantage from a hypertrophy/ performance perspective

 

[Koensayr_s3]

Plenty of people like to small amounts of prop ED for TRT, but I doubt you'd see much advantage from a hypertrophy/ performance perspective

I couldn't think up a mechanism by which it would be superior, but then again, am far from an expert in this area . I appreciate your insight.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I couldn't think up a mechanism by which it would be superior, but then again, am far from an expert in this area . I appreciate your insight.

Some people believe broscience that there’s less water retention associated with short esters vs long esters.

Broscience though. It’s bullshit. The hormone doesn’t do anything at all in the body until the ester is cleaved. Then testosterone is testosterone. Or nandrolone is nandrolone after the ester is cleaved.

 

[1bigun11]

Thank you for this answer!

@TODAY what do you think about pinning longer esters more frequently? My TRT prescription has me pinning 60mg test cyp every other day for a total of 210mg testosterone per week. Would I be better off (from a hypertrophy / performance standpoint) by using a similar amount of total hormone via testosterone attached to the proionate ester (let's say I adjust the test prop intake down just slightly to account for molecular weight)?

Sounds like your doctor makes a lot of money by making things more complicated than they need to be.

 

[beefnewton]

My original intent for using daily Prop (morning injection) was to try and more closely mimic the body's natural cycle of testosterone. Given that its estered at all, I'm not sure I really ever achieved anything at all in that regard. I tried TNE/suspension over ten years ago but did not have good results. I've thought about a combination of TNE/suspension and Prop to achieve this, but at this point, just the Prop has done quite well enough. I could probably convert to longer esters and do less injections, but it's been routine for a very long time and does afford faster results with dose changes... but those are few and far between, too.

 

[crido887]

@Koensayr_s3 I am running Test U right now weekly for my TRT in replacement of 2-3x a week Test C.
I think active hormone is around 63mg per 100mg of Test U
and I think its 69mg per 100mg of Test C

its about 190mg. I am surprised that my lowest point is 683 on that high of a dosage. I am assuming my midpoint is around 750-850.


There are quite a bit of reports of less water retention on NPP vs DECA, but this is through reports and I will say, while I have not ran DECA, I did not notice much water retention running NPP.

Shorter esters make it easier to titrate dosages

Shorter esters carry less molecular weight, therefore offering marginally more hormone/mg

Short esters clear faster, making it easier to abort a cycle in case of extreme side-effects

Short esters (pinned more frequently) can lead to more stable blood concentrations of hormone which can potentially lead to fewer side-effects.

I think NPP vs Deca is slightly unique as it does offer the same hormone/mg.

See the first quote below from a user here 10 years ago.

Active hormone per 100mg.

Boldenones

Boldenone base: 100mg

Boldenone acetate: 83mg

Boldenone Propionate: 80mg

Boldenone Cypionate: 69mg

Boldenone Undecylenate: 61mg


Clostebols

Clostebol Base: 100mg

Clostebol Acetate: 84mg

Clostebol Enanthate: 72mg


Drostanolones

Drostanolone Base: 100mg

Drostanolone Propionate: 80mg

Drostanolone Enanthate: 71mg


Methenolones

Methenolone Base: 100mg

Methenolone Acetate: 82mg

Methenolone Enanthate: 71mg


Nandrolones

Nandrolone Base: 100mg

Nandrolone Cypionate: 69mg

Nandrolone Phenylpropionate: 63mg

Nandrolone Decanoate: 62mg

Nandrolone Undecylenate: 60mg

Nandrolone Laurate: 56mg


Stenbolones

Stenbolone Base: 100mg

Stenbolone Acetate: 84mg


Testosterones

Testosterone Base: 100mg

Testosterone Acetate: 83mg

Testosterone Propionate: 80mg

Testosterone Isocaproate: 72mg

Testosterone Enanthate: 70mg

Testosterone Cypionate: 69mg

Testosterone Phenylpropionate: 66mg

Testosterone Decanoate: 62mg

Testosterone Undecanoate: 61mg


Trenbolones

Trenbolone Base: 100mg

Trenbolone Acetate: 83mg

Trenbolone Enanthate: 68mg

Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzyl Carbonate: 65mg*

Trenbolone cyclohexylmethylcarbonate: 65mg*

 

[BRICKS]

Understandable why someone would use tren ace for an entire cycle. When you've had enough, you've had enough and want it gone.

 

[Koensayr_s3]

My original intent for using daily Prop (morning injection) was to try and more closely mimic the body's natural cycle of testosterone. Given that its estered at all, I'm not sure I really ever achieved anything at all in that regard. I tried TNE/suspension over ten years ago but did not have good results. I've thought about a combination of TNE/suspension and Prop to achieve this, but at this point, just the Prop has done quite well enough. I could probably convert to longer esters and do less injections, but it's been routine for a very long time and does afford faster results with dose changes... but those are few and far between, too.

Did you notice any better sense of mood or results when you more closely matched your exogenous hormone intake to the pulsatile / circadian pattern of endogenous production?

 

[Koensayr_s3]

Understandable why someone would use tren ace for an entire cycle. When you've had enough, you've had enough and want it gone.

Good point here

 

[BRICKS]

Shorter esters make it easier to titrate dosages

Shorter esters carry less molecular weight, therefore offering marginally more hormone/mg

Short esters clear faster, making it easier to abort a cycle in case of extreme side-effects

Short esters (pinned more frequently) can lead to more stable blood concentrations of hormone which can potentially lead to fewer side-effects.

Agree with all but the last point. Once a steady state plasma level is reached with any hormone or medication you have exactly that, a steady plasma level. This occurs at the 4 to 5 times the half life point. That's why you see that test cyp blast really kick at about the 5 week mark for example. With prop or ace you're looking at 12-15 days to that point. Now, if you're saying that short esters, because of more frequent dosing will have smaller peaks and valleys prior to that steady state... no. Remember, they have a shorter half life too. More accurate would be to look at more frequent dosing of the same ester. Example: not comparing cyp to prop, but comparing cyp 1x/week vs 2x/week dosing. Make sense? It's basic pharmacology.
Incidently, my trt doc, who's sharp as shit, board certified in this stuff, also ER director and medical director at our closet Level 1 trauma center, and former competitive poweifter ( point is the guy is no slouch) tells me that there's no significant difference in steady state levels with test cyp once a week or split that dose to twice a week. Do whatever makes you happy, but it doesn't matter really with respect to result. Ninety percent of bodybuilding is a head game we play with ourselves, but that head game drives the 10% that actually builds muscle.

 

[beefnewton]

Did you notice any better sense of mood or results when you more closely matched your exogenous hormone intake to the pulsatile / circadian pattern of endogenous production?

Can't say that I did. I feel like I experience that rhythm without directly trying to influence it, though... at least if morning erections are any indication.

 

[Koensayr_s3]

Good stuff! Thanks all for your contributions so far

 

[BrotherIron]

....Incidently, my trt doc, who's sharp as shit, board certified in this stuff, also ER director and medical director at our closet Level 1 trauma center, and former competitive poweifter ( point is the guy is no slouch) tells me that there's no significant difference in steady state levels with test cyp once a week or split that dose to twice a week.....

I find that to be the case as well. I went from Cyp 2x a week to 1x week (been this way now for years) and haven't had any issues whatsoever. Now, I'm not saying to follow what I did but if the bloodwork comes back ok and I feel ok.... why pin myself 2x wk?

 

[Benf15harp]

My original intent for using daily Prop (morning injection) was to try and more closely mimic the body's natural cycle of testosterone. Given that its estered at all, I'm not sure I really ever achieved anything at all in that regard. I tried TNE/suspension over ten years ago but did not have good results. I've thought about a combination of TNE/suspension and Prop to achieve this, but at this point, just the Prop has done quite well enough. I could probably convert to longer esters and do less injections, but it's been routine for a very long time and does afford faster results with dose changes... but those are few and far between, too.

Wouldn’t pinning at night with props 12 hour peak time be more accurate to follow the body’s natural rhythm? Seems taking in the morning would peak in the evening, when the body is naturally at its lowest

 

[Thrawn]

One example essentially covered above but you're on TRT your doc wants to test you every three to six months, if he catches you blasting you may be dropped as a patient. short esters allow you to time stuff a little easier so when you do get your blood work drawn your levels look normal based off your TRT dose.