Is Training to Failure Worse for Gains?

[eazy]

Similar muscle hypertrophy following eight weeks of resistance training to momentary muscular failure or with repetitions-in-reserve in resistance-trained individuals

5.Conclusion

Overall, we observed that terminating sets with a perceived 1- to 2-RIR can be sufficient to promote similar hypertrophy of the quadriceps as reaching momentary muscular failure in resistance-trained individuals over eight weeks. Our findings also highlight that muscle-specific hypertrophy may depend on exercise selection, exercise order, and subsequent muscula-ture targeted. Importantly, our sample of participants were able to predict RIR within one repetition from the target RIR, and whether higher or lower RIR accuracy would influence our results is unclear. Performing RT with 1- to 2-RIR also allows for similar volume load and repetition volume accumulation as reaching momentary muscular failure, possibly influencing the overall RT stimulus achieved. Indeed, repetition loss from the first to the final set was greater when sets were terminated at momentary muscular failure versus with 1- to 2-RIR, likely con-tributing to the similar volume observed between protocols. Although performing RT to momentary muscular failure con-sistently induced higher levels of acute neuromuscular fatigue versus RT performed with 1- to 2-RIR, we observed improved fatigue resistance that may attenuate acute neuromuscular fatigue and subsequent repetition loss across eight weeks (but may depend on the exercise performed). To our knowl-edge, the present study is the first to compare RT performed to momentary muscular failure versus with 1- to 2-RIR (using RIR prescription) on muscle hypertrophy and neuromuscular fati-gue over an 8-week intervention period in resistance-trained males and females, further advancing the understanding of proximity-to-failure and providing practical recommendations that can be applied across different demographics (i.e., general population, sports athletes, bodybuilders).

 

[eazy]

Do I understand this correctly?

I can train to 1 or 2 RIR and get the same outcome as training to failure. Maybe even better because I won't be consistently inducing higher levels of acute neuromuscular fatigue.

If I do choose to train to failure it should be just the last set to avoid negative impacts on subsequent sets.

 

[Send0]

I think you read it correctly. I personally don't think it matters one way or the other. If you pushed hard enough on your first set, then why is that worse than keeping RIR at 1-2 just for the purpose of being able to do follow on sets at higher rep ranges? It's the last couple of reps that stimulate growth anyway.

Just my opinion, I don't buy into it that much. What I mean is that I bet it is pretty close to the same amount of growth/stimulus whether you train within 1-2 RIR or take the set to failure.

In regards to neuromuscular/CNS fatigue... I don't buy into the notion that this is a problem for most people in the first place to even be something worth considering. Again, just my opinion... and I have no evidence I feel like putting together to support said opinion, although I'm certain I could do it if I had the time today.

 

[CJ]

Do I understand this correctly?

I can train to 1 or 2 RIR and get the same outcome as training to failure. Maybe even better because I won't be consistently inducing higher levels of acute neuromuscular fatigue.

If I do choose to train to failure it should be just the last set to avoid negative impacts on subsequent sets.

Yes, that's basically the gist of it. By not taking every set to failure, you'll be able to use more load and/or perform more reps in subsequent sets.

I've been messing around with this myself, after hearing Paul Carter say that he's switched to 1 RIR, and his progress has accelerated.

 

[Send0]

Yes, that's basically the gist of it. By not taking every set to failure, you'll be able to use more load and/or perform more reps in subsequent sets.

I've been messing around with this myself, after hearing Paul Carter say that he's switched to 1 RIR, and his progress has accelerated.

do you think his progress accelerated because he changed things up, or because only going to 1-2 RIR is always superior to going to failure?

 

[CJ]

do you think his progress accelerated because he changed things up, or because only going to 1-2 RIR is always superior to going to failure?

His rough words, not mine... It's the 1 RIR. The magnitude of fatigue from that last rep isn't worth it, both in that workout, and for subsequent workouts.

He said the only variable that was changed in his program was dropping that last rep. Finally was able to get past plateaus that he repeatedly could not.

 

[Send0]

His rough words, not mine... It's the 1 RIR. The magnitude of fatigue from that last rep isn't worth it, both in that workout, and for subsequent workouts.

He said the only variable that was changed in his program was dropping that last rep. Finally was able to get past plateaus that he repeatedly could not.

I notice a benefit by doing my B workouts with 1 RIR... but my A workout is always to failure. I'm skeptical that doing 1 RIR is that drastic of an improvement, but I'll also acknowledge I'm not as advanced or well trained as either him or yourself.

 

[CJ]

I notice a benefit by doing my B workouts with 1 RIR... but my A workout is always to failure. I'm skeptical that doing 1 RIR is that drastic of an improvement, but I'll also acknowledge I'm not as advanced or well trained as either him or yourself.

I make no claims about it, I'm just testing it out.

 

[Yano]

In regards to neuromuscular/CNS fatigue... I don't buy into the notion that this is a problem for most people in the first place to even be something worth considering.

100% on this with ya.

It takes a hell of a lot to get to things actually failing or golgi tendon kicking in.

For me it happens working at just under max for multiple reps.

Say 475 for 3 and then pause and get the deuce ,, then I gota rest for a few and then i can hit like 4 more singles before shit fails , it just wont come off the floor any more. I cant transfer anything through hinge or legs to push the earth away.

drop the weight and do it again at 455 and i get shaky , weird in the head like i have a problem paying attention , feels like im floating on a raft in a pool.

you have to really want to get to that point lol i dont think your average gym bro ever comes close

 

[1bigun11]

My thought is to do your warmups, work your way to your working set, take it to failure plus—and you’re done.

Of course if you take ten sets past failure the guy leaving reps in reserve for those ten sets is probably going to best you. Because you were done after your first working set to failure and the next nine sets you did to failure just cut onto your recovery and growth (supercompensation) reserves.

You wanna get big? Train to failure then go eat.

 

[dk8594]

I like to delegate independent thought to machines and then have robots do my reps. The robot hasn’t gotten much bigger, but it is strong AF

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

The study is decent from what I can tell.

The problem still remains that people are typically very bad at estimating reps in reserve. What someone thinks is RIR1 is often RIR2-3, even well trained individuals.

Failure lacks the opportunity for subjectivity.

We still have that meta regression showing the stimulus response to the RIR2 rep is significantly more stimulating than RIR3.
And RIR1 is much more stimulating than RIR2.
And RIR0 is much more stimulating than RIR1.

We can reasonably conclude that sets taken beyond failure produce similar results along this trendline.

I like Paul Carter a lot, but lets be real here. When is the last time any of the jacked dudes here have noticed a significant change in muscle recruitment when changing a program? Does anyone actually see significant, measurable change when changing programs once in the advanced-elite stages of muscular development?
I haven't seen much, even when blasting, tbh.

Paul has been at this a lot longer than I have... Do we really think he sees new muscle growth, or do we think that he makes money when people follow his advice? My bets are on the latter.


Do I think training at RPE9 vs RPE10 is going to cause massive changes? No. I think that when we are as developed - muscularly speaking - as we are, that growth does not happen if not going full send RPE10/RIR0.
The main criticism I have on the study is that the subjects being "well developed" does not mean a lot to folks like us. Well developed can mean an FFMI of 24, or it can mean FFMI of 30. (FFMI 30 dudes could do well on stage). So how "developed" is "well developed", and do these guidelines still apply to people on the far end of muscular development?
Again, my bets are "no".

You wanna get big? Train to failure then go eat.

This is the answer, and will always be the answer for us, in my opinion.

 

[Yano]

train til you cant move the weight , rest a bit , move it some more , lower it ,, move it some more ,, fail ,,, go stuff your face and rest ...

its not fucking rocket science

 

[BRICKS]

The problem with the RIR bullshit is that it's subjective. Failure is not. You either can or can't.

"CNS fatigue" has some validity, thing is 99.99% of people don't train to that level, even though they think they do.

 

[CJ]

The problem with the RIR bullshit is that it's subjective. Failure is not. You either can or can't.

"CNS fatigue" has some validity, thing is 99.99% of people don't train to that level, even though they think they do.

I'd argue that failure is subjective with most people that I see in the gym. Funny how failure always seems to be 10 reps.

 

[buck]

As long as a person is adding more weight to their sets over time i would have to think muscle growth will happen. I can see where many would do better with RIR as many/most never really hit failure anyway in my opinion. The problem with stopping 1-2 reps short is that one needs to consistently be going to failure so they will know where they need to stop short at. As strength should rise over time. If not a person is just guessing what 1-2 short maty be and is likely to be far more short, then 1-2 i would think. As most people look to find the easiest way to accomplish their goals and feel good/comfortable while doing that.

 

[Jonjon]

I have always trained to failure on everything except squats (just don’t have that in me)

I tried backing off for about 8 weeks back in January and I made good progress after a long period of no progress. But there were other variables, I was just coming off of a long cut. Still I think there’s some merit to this.

I’m just paranoid I haven’t done enough if I’m not just wrecked coming out of the gym.

 

[BRICKS]

I'd argue that failure is subjective with most people that I see in the gym. Funny how failure always seems to be 10 reps.

Yeah everybody thinks they're working as hard as they can. Anybody who is truly pushing it to the edge, truly taking it to failure should tell you that you can do this every training session for an extended period of time. I can see that being the point if where this article comes into play. Backing things off a rep or two has its place, and when we talk about optimum training for maximum hypertrophy being to failure, it's just that. Optimum for maximum. Doesn't mean somebody won't make significant gains with maybe a rep left in the tank. This will become more apparent I think, to guys who stick with it into, fuck do I dare, later years, when you have to be more mindful of things like tendon injuries etc... I'll be 60 this year, and I still go to failure on most things most of the time. And when shit like joints, t3ndons, ligaments start to misbehave I will back it off a bit. Gotta be able to come back and pay the rent again tomorrow.

 

[Bro Bundy]

I think it’s all bullshit . The most important way to train is not to injure yourself . I found that out the hard way . I would go to what I thought was fail But with weight I can handle . What’s the point of going so hard u pop some shit

 

[Yano]

Yeah going to full failure on every lift every workout would just suck for longevity and gains.

You would get so blown out and sore it wouldn't be worth it , there is a point of diminishing returns where you just need to deload and rest if you max out or run to fail.

I know this cus i've tried it thinking I was bulletproof , i quickly found out the S on my chest stands for stupid not Superman


That's why I work my max effort days on mon and wed and my dynamic on fri and sat , gives me a full day of recovery between max loading.