Planning out my next cycle and what follows

[ChickenLegs]

I took a cycle last May - July, I PCT'd and then have been off of anything since then. I gained about 15lb during that cycle, a decent amount of it being muscle but over the year or so after it I have lost a good amount of it. I have kept my eating and training in order, which I can add on here if you guys would like to reference it for this, just let me know.

When it comes to learning about steroids or bodybuilding stuff in general I take a lot of input into account but my go to source of info is Mike Isratel from RP. So most of my ideas have come from opinions of his, but I am happy to hear yalls input and see what you think.
I'm 5'10, 176 @ 14-15%, and I'm 23.

I would rather have a plan of how to approach cycling and progressing in bodybuilding. I would like to hop on stage one day, but not until I think I am big enough to really have a good chance. I won't ever get a card or place first in any significant competition but competing seems like a challenge I would like to do some day. I do not want to take anything besides TRT past 28-30, which gives me 5-7 years to push myself and see what I can accomplish in that timeframe. I am okay with accepting the toll on my health for these next 5 years but I don't care to go past that.

After doing some research on cycling and / or blasting and cruising I have seen more viewpoints advocating for BnC, however I am open to hearing the arguments for the alternative. If I was to BnC, I am planning on running 125 - 200mg test E as my cruise dose. As far as cycles that is where I am still unsure and I don't think I will have much of a laid out plan on those. I would like to know what my next 2 cycles will be so I can order all my shit in advance and not have to worry about not having something beforehand. I am planning to go 1:1 for blasts vs cruise lengths.

For my 2 blasts, last time I took 500mg test E per week and I seemed to respond good, not a hyper-responder by any means but I grew significantly and I think that dose was fine.
I have looked quite a bit into different additions I could make on top of the test base and my top choices are npp, primo, and maybe masteron. My only worry about primo is that I am not confident in my source for it so I may put that aside. I was planning to have AI (Arimidex) on hand in case of any flare ups.

What are yall's thoughts on this

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I took a cycle last May - July, I PCT'd and then have been off of anything since then. I gained about 15lb during that cycle, a decent amount of it being muscle but over the year or so after it I have lost a good amount of it. I have kept my eating and training in order, which I can add on here if you guys would like to reference it for this, just let me know.

When it comes to learning about steroids or bodybuilding stuff in general I take a lot of input into account but my go to source of info is Mike Isratel from RP. So most of my ideas have come from opinions of his, but I am happy to hear yalls input and see what you think.
I'm 5'10, 176 @ 14-15%, and I'm 23.

I would rather have a plan of how to approach cycling and progressing in bodybuilding. I would like to hop on stage one day, but not until I think I am big enough to really have a good chance. I won't ever get a card or place first in any significant competition but competing seems like a challenge I would like to do some day. I do not want to take anything besides TRT past 28-30, which gives me 5-7 years to push myself and see what I can accomplish in that timeframe. I am okay with accepting the toll on my health for these next 5 years but I don't care to go past that.

After doing some research on cycling and / or blasting and cruising I have seen more viewpoints advocating for BnC, however I am open to hearing the arguments for the alternative. If I was to BnC, I am planning on running 125 - 200mg test E as my cruise dose. As far as cycles that is where I am still unsure and I don't think I will have much of a laid out plan on those. I would like to know what my next 2 cycles will be so I can order all my shit in advance and not have to worry about not having something beforehand. I am planning to go 1:1 for blasts vs cruise lengths.

For my 2 blasts, last time I took 500mg test E per week and I seemed to respond good, not a hyper-responder by any means but I grew significantly and I think that dose was fine.
I have looked quite a bit into different additions I could make on top of the test base and my top choices are npp, primo, and maybe masteron. My only worry about primo is that I am not confident in my source for it so I may put that aside. I was planning to have AI (Arimidex) on hand in case of any flare ups.

What are yall's thoughts on this

You have it backwards.

You should train natural at least until AFTER you are 30.

What were your testosterone levels before running two cycles? What are they now?

Imagine suppressing your natural testosterone production for the next 5 years, it will be more difficult to recover after that. Lots of people have fucked themselves up bad for that.

23 is young. The advice is typically to wait to run PEDs until your brain fully matures because your decision making skills aren’t developed. Yea yea yea, you’re “different” that’s what everybody says. Ask anyone that got a tattoo in their early 20s if they like it now. 10/10 they say “I probably wouldn’t do it again”.

My advice is to wait. You have more time than you think. Most bodybuilders hit their PRIME in their mid to late 30s.

Edit: and Mike Isratel is a love him or hate him guy. His methods of training aren’t agreed with by a lot of other people. Take him with a grain of salt (or however that expression goes).

 

[CohibaRobusto]

The other side of the coin is if you really want to go pro and start now, then just accept that you could be on trt for the rest of your life.

The most important thing is to keep a close eye on all of your health markers, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, liver and kidney functions, etc.

What you're getting into has risks. If you have any genetic cardiovascular issues it could exacerbate those. I have experience with this, it was really scary and not fun.

As far as your last statement about source issues goes. I wouldn't put any crap in my body I wasn't sure of. I learned this the hard way too. Do your research on sources.

 

[ChickenLegs]

You have it backwards.

You should train natural at least until AFTER you are 30.

What were your testosterone levels before running two cycles? What are they now?

Imagine suppressing your natural testosterone production for the next 5 years, it will be more difficult to recover after that. Lots of people have fucked themselves up bad for that.

23 is young. The advice is typically to wait to run PEDs until your brain fully matures because your decision making skills aren’t developed. Yea yea yea, you’re “different” that’s what everybody says. Ask anyone that got a tattoo in their early 20s if they like it now. 10/10 they say “I probably wouldn’t do it again”.

My advice is to wait. You have more time than you think. Most bodybuilders hit their PRIME in their mid to late 30s.

Edit: and Mike Isratel is a love him or hate him guy. His methods of training aren’t agreed with by a lot of other people. Take him with a grain of salt (or however that expression goes).

I agree that it definitely would’ve been better for me to wait to take PED’s but I’m far past that. I’m not sure what my test levels were before my first cycle because when I was 20 I took sarms, not the best choice but it is what it is. I’m getting bloods here soon before I start whatever is next.

I appreciate the advice however I think I am still going to move forward with running gear now and not waiting until I’m older. I know that may make me a retard but it is what it is.

I have heard some people disagree with Mike but with how many conflicting points of view there are on training it’s hard to pick one that everyone agrees with. Between Mike’s style and just a fuckload of volume I don’t respond well to the others I’ve tried. Thanks though BBBG

 

[ChickenLegs]

The other side of the coin is if you really want to go pro and start now, then just accept that you could be on trt for the rest of your life.

The most important thing is to keep a close eye on all of your health markers, blood pressure, cholesterol levels, liver and kidney functions, etc.

What you're getting into has risks. If you have any genetic cardiovascular issues it could exacerbate those. I have experience with this, it was really scary and not fun.

As far as your last statement about source issues goes. I wouldn't put any crap in my body I wasn't sure of. I learned this the hard way too. Do your research on sources.

I accepted being on TRT for the rest of my life with my cycle last year, I am okay with that and understand its implications.

I agree on everything you said, and yeah I won’t be getting something I’m not positive on for sourcing. Thanks for the input

 

[RowdyBrad]

I would get your nutrition and training in line, to where you are actually gaining muscle steadily naturally, before adding in any cycle. You mentioned you lost much of the gains over the past year but said you kept your training and nutrition. If you did, you wouldn't have lost any true muscle you gained. If you do it again, you will get drug results that won't last as opposed to enhanced gains that your training and diet will keep and expand on.

 

[RowdyBrad]

I accepted being on TRT for the rest of my life with my cycle last year, I am okay with that and understand its implications.

I agree on everything you said, and yeah I won’t be getting something I’m not positive on for sourcing. Thanks for the input

As someone on TRT for medical reasons, your aknowledgement of TRT at 23 is not the same as when you are a few years deep. It is a huge PITA when you HAVE to do it versus it being a choice. Your TRT desire may wane, but you may have a chance to still get your body to produce like normal for quite a while.

 

[ChickenLegs]

I would get your nutrition and training in line, to where you are actually gaining muscle steadily naturally, before adding in any cycle. You mentioned you lost much of the gains over the past year but said you kept your training and nutrition. If you did, you wouldn't have lost any true muscle you gained. If you do it again, you will get drug results that won't last as opposed to enhanced gains that your training and diet will keep and expand on.

Thanks for the response, I agree that having my training and nutrition in line while off cycle is important, however I think I had likely the best results or very close that I could’ve. My maintenance calories are about 2700, since I came off last July I hit my g per lb protein goal each day and based on whether I was cutting or bulking I hit my calorie marker as well each day since. It was slow but over the 15 months since my strength gradually decreased along with my size.

I’m not saying I disagree with what you’re saying, but I think that the way I’ve trained and ate since has been about as good as it can be. I will say, I have tried a few different training methods to test to see if there were any I responded better to, and they may not have been ideal for growth but during all of them I still kept my workouts at 100% so I wouldn’t expect it to impact it too much.

As someone on TRT for medical reasons, your aknowledgement of TRT at 23 is not the same as when you are a few years deep. It is a huge PITA when you HAVE to do it versus it being a choice. Your TRT desire may wane, but you may have a chance to still get your body to produce like normal for quite a while.

I appreciate the weight behind this, however I assume if I am going to do my best to be a bodybuilder there’s little to no way around a lifetime of TRT. And yes I acknowledge that I could try to kickstart it back up now and stay natural forever or at least a few years, but I don’t think that is what I’ll end up doing. I don’t want to come across as another dipshit just trying to blast gear, I think these years would be the best for me to push myself and see how much I can accomplish.

Thank you for you input Brad

 

[RowdyBrad]

It is odd if your training stayed consistently stimulating and your calories and protein were consistent, that you would lose your gains. To me, that would mean either you perceive them as optimal but they are not adequate to keep your mass, your hormones didn't fully recover, or potentially you are not recovering enough.

Especially if you stayed the same weight and your composition change to less muscle there is obviously something at play, because you wouldn't seem to be near your "genetic limits" by your stats. If your weight dropped, many times it is because your true maintenance is higher at an increased weight after a period of maintenance when you normalize.

 

[ChickenLegs]

It is odd if your training stayed consistently stimulating and your calories and protein were consistent, that you would lose your gains. To me, that would mean either you perceive them as optimal but they are not adequate to keep your mass, your hormones didn't fully recover, or potentially you are not recovering enough.

Especially if you stayed the same weight and your composition change to less muscle there is obviously something at play, because you wouldn't seem to be near your "genetic limits" by your stats. If your weight dropped, many times it is because your true maintenance is higher at an increased weight after a period of maintenance when you normalize.

Yup I see where you’re coming from 100%. Protein was consistent the entire time, calories were either above maintenance or 500 below for a couple cuts, but I saw strength decline at a pretty consistent rate throughout. I don’t think my protein or calories weren’t optimal because when I went higher on either I had the same effect I just got fatter, still lost muscle. And I do a 3 on - 1 off routine and I sleep 8 hours most nights (there’s the occasional bad night of sleep, maybe 1 every 10 days) so I think my recovery is pretty solid, and I don’t think I’m overtraining either.

Assuming my assumptions on those are correct, that leaves hormones. I haven’t gotten bloods in awhile since I’ve been off, but I’m getting a test in the next week so I’ll be able to share those. I had low T before my last cycle and I assume I have it again, and since it may be relevant, I did PCT after my last cycle.

I’m a bit confused by the last piece you wrote, are you saying that my true maintenance calories are higher than i am eating right now but my weight isn’t high enough to balance it out yet?

 

[RowdyBrad]

I mean a lot of times people bulk up, add muscle, then go to their previous maintenance calories which is actually now a deficit because of the added mass. But also, after a bulk or cut, your body is influenced by many things and within a couple or more weeks your caloric needs can change.

Your maintenance needs at the end of a phase can then change as your body re-adapts to your new normal, so if you drop weight after a couple weeks of normalizing or adding weight in the same fashion, you may need to adjust to find your new true maintenance. It might take weeks depending on how out of whack you have become. Happens a lot after a cut to find maintenance but also seems to with the end of bulks with people dropping calories too far and going further after 're normalization" of hormones, water, sensitivities, etc.

 

[ChickenLegs]

I mean a lot of times people bulk up, add muscle, then go to their previous maintenance calories which is actually now a deficit because of the added mass. But also, after a bulk or cut, your body is influenced by many things and within a couple or more weeks your caloric needs can change.

Your maintenance needs at the end of a phase can then change as your body re-adapts to your new normal, so if you drop weight after a couple weeks of normalizing or adding weight in the same fashion, you may need to adjust to find your new true maintenance. It might take weeks depending on how out of whack you have become. Happens a lot after a cut to find maintenance but also seems to with the end of bulks with people dropping calories too far and going further after 're normalization" of hormones, water, sensitivities, etc.

Ahh okay I see what you mean now, during the first few months I did what you said where I stayed with what I had calculated at the start of my bulk and stayed with that. But about 6 months ago I noticed it may be different and now I adjust based off my average weekly weights if they’re not what I’m expecting for 2-3 weeks straight. But it’s been at ~2700 for awhile now, right now I’m actually at 2000 on a mini-cut but I am keeping an eye for it to see if it changes. I didn’t know the science or reasoning behind it well, so I’m glad you brought that up, makes a lot more sense now

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Yup I see where you’re coming from 100%. Protein was consistent the entire time, calories were either above maintenance or 500 below for a couple cuts, but I saw strength decline at a pretty consistent rate throughout. I don’t think my protein or calories weren’t optimal because when I went higher on either I had the same effect I just got fatter, still lost muscle. And I do a 3 on - 1 off routine and I sleep 8 hours most nights (there’s the occasional bad night of sleep, maybe 1 every 10 days) so I think my recovery is pretty solid, and I don’t think I’m overtraining either.

Your strength gains went down over time?

Your training is wonky. Of course you are going to shrink. There's no progressive overload. Regardless of which program you follow, you need to add weight over time or add reps. If you're not doing that, there is no stimulation for the muscle so not only no hypertrophy, but the muscle will atrophy, which it did.

High volume SUCKS. You accumulate fatigue with that. That fatigue is NOT necessarily muscle soreness or "tired", the muscle fatigue affects performance. You should increase the weight, lower the number of reps, take it to failure within the 6-12 rep range, add a rep the next training session, and when you reach failure above 12 reps, add 5 pounds the next session and rinse/repeat.

If you fail to add a rep. One rep. Not much but it's progression, then your training days for that muscle group are too close together. Add something else in, and train the muscle group the next day. You won't be overtrained from lifting this way. You get overtrained from too much volume.

This is why you aren't ready to blast and cruise. You still need to figure out how to train properly. Don't make that decision unitl you see your testosterone results.

 

[ChickenLegs]

Your strength gains went down over time?

Your training is wonky. Of course you are going to shrink. There's no progressive overload. Regardless of which program you follow, you need to add weight over time or add reps. If you're not doing that, there is no stimulation for the muscle so not only no hypertrophy, but the muscle will atrophy, which it did.

High volume SUCKS. You accumulate fatigue with that. That fatigue is NOT necessarily muscle soreness or "tired", the muscle fatigue affects performance. You should increase the weight, lower the number of reps, take it to failure within the 6-12 rep range, add a rep the next training session, and when you reach failure above 12 reps, add 5 pounds the next session and rinse/repeat.

If you fail to add a rep. One rep. Not much but it's progression, then your training days for that muscle group are too close together. Add something else in, and train the muscle group the next day. You won't be overtrained from lifting this way. You get overtrained from too much volume.

This is why you aren't ready to blast and cruise. You still need to figure out how to train properly. Don't make that decision unitl you see your testosterone results.

I get what you’re saying, I did that same kind of progressive overload through the first 6 years of my lifting where I was able to add an extra rep or go up in weight each workout or stay in the same spot at least. However after my cycle ended I wasn’t able to keep hitting those same progressive overloads and trying those same weights each workout was ending with me just falling short on a lot and after awhile of that I started trying out the different training methods. While high volume was definitely the most fun because of the pump, I get that it’s not the best training style. I initially tried it after Armon Adibi recommended it but only gave it a few weeks before swapping it out. However after hearing yalls stance on it I agree it’s not worth revisiting.

Because of me losing some strength and attributing it to coming off and having not recovered well with my PCT I ended up having training that wasn’t perfect, and it’s not clear on my training thread a lot of the weights besides free weight movements aren’t equal. My gym has 5 different types of cables machine and with how packed it always is Im not able to get the same consistent ones each time, and a lot of the times I have to sub a movement for something that’s similar. This has lead to my training being less linear but there’s not much I can do about that. However I am going to be more conscious of my progressive overloads in the movements I can control and try to keep those at the same order for each workout.

All in all I see the area I can improve in in my training but I think the coming off made a larger difference than I was hoping for or expecting, which is another reason why I see BnC better than cycles

Thanks BBBG

 

[CJ]

I get what you’re saying, I did that same kind of progressive overload through the first 6 years of my lifting where I was able to add an extra rep or go up in weight each workout or stay in the same spot at least. However after my cycle ended I wasn’t able to keep hitting those same progressive overloads and trying those same weights each workout was ending with me just falling short on a lot and after awhile of that I started trying out the different training methods. While high volume was definitely the most fun because of the pump, I get that it’s not the best training style. I initially tried it after Armon Adibi recommended it but only gave it a few weeks before swapping it out. However after hearing yalls stance on it I agree it’s not worth revisiting.

Because of me losing some strength and attributing it to coming off and having not recovered well with my PCT I ended up having training that wasn’t perfect, and it’s not clear on my training thread a lot of the weights besides free weight movements aren’t equal. My gym has 5 different types of cables machine and with how packed it always is Im not able to get the same consistent ones each time, and a lot of the times I have to sub a movement for something that’s similar. This has lead to my training being less linear but there’s not much I can do about that. However I am going to be more conscious of my progressive overloads in the movements I can control and try to keep those at the same order for each workout.

All in all I see the area I can improve in in my training but I think the coming off made a larger difference than I was hoping for or expecting, which is another reason why I see BnC better than cycles

Thanks BBBG

I wouldn't worry too much if you have to use a different machine or cable station for assistance exercises. Use a few big main compound exercises to track your progress.

 

[ChickenLegs]

I wouldn't worry too much if you have to use a different machine or cable station for assistance exercises. Use a few big main compound exercises to track your progress.

Gotcha, will do, thanks CJ