Cycle dosages and Upper limit of growth

[TomJ]

estrogen itself is shown to improve acne for most. Estrogen fluctuations can cause issues for sure; I don't think my estrogen was fluctuating very much at all when pinning daily.

DHT itself is absolutely shown to cause acne.

I attempted Aramidex at a half .125mg tablet (.0625mg LOL)... estrogen crashed. Tried it again a week later, estrogen crashed again. I'm pretty well convinced that my issue was not elevated estrogen, but it is hard to tell.

For some, the acne is caused by estrogen. For others, DHT. Regardless, the solution of using lower aromatizing (non-DHT) compounds works for me, which is all I was trying to get at.

If you want to continue discussing, I'm happy to - maybe just in the other thread so this thread doesn't become about me =)

i didnt say elevated, but as youre serum levels balance out, there will always be fluctuations, regardless of injection frequency.

ive also ran high doses of DHT's with no acne issues whatsoever.

it sounds like you were all over the place chasing stable estrogen levels with the irregular AI dosing, being adex is a non-suicide inhibitor, you experienced a crash, then a rebound every time you tried it.

that allone would be plenty to fuck up stable levels.

 

[TomJ]

im not saying its a bad idea to go low test high deca, plenty of guys do that, but i would make sure that test and the subsequent elevation of DHT was the actual cause rather than other factors.

"test is best" isnt parroted over and over for nothing

 

[CJ]

I was thinking of that as well, synergistic effects and mitigating sides. I just see so many using 600mg test with 400 mg deca for instance. If you get little sides from the test would there be a point (muscle building wise) to add in the nandrolone? It seems possibly you will get some added muscle building up to the 1.5g gram total range theoretically. I know there are also therapeutic benefits as well.

So it seems there may be more of a muscle building dosage cap (at least in a benefit curve ratio) and less a hard set muscle building capability cap?

It could also be possible that the same total mgs mixed from the 3 categories of Nandrolones, DHTs, and Testosterones would yield better results than the same total mgs from any single one of those categories.

 

[TomJ]

It could also be possible that the same total mgs mixed from the 3 categories of Nandrolones, DHTs, and Testosterones would yield better results than the same total mgs from any single one of those categories.

would this be a function of the difference in derivative? or rather simply a function of the mg/mg potency and binding affinity of the compounds

 

[CJ]

would this be a function of the difference in derivative? or rather simply a function of the mg/mg potency and binding affinity of the compounds

Honestly I don't know. I'm thinking maybe there's some differences in what they do, so maybe there's a synergistic effect.

And I've been hearing how some orals don't even bind to the AR, so there might be other pathways/MOA that we don't even understand.

 

[TomJ]

Honestly I don't know. I'm thinking maybe there's some differences in what they do, so maybe there's a synergistic effect.

And I've been hearing how some orals don't even bind to the AR, so there might be other pathways/MOA that we don't even understand.

there are definitely things we dont understand. hormones are incredibly complex.

i mean how many metabolites does test have? and metabolites of those metabolites? so on and so forth until secretion?

Where is the info on orals? never read that yet.

 

[Yano]

For some ,, stacking compounds is about hitting all 3 pathways , so guys will stack test with a dht and a 19 or a 17 believing that will give them the max amount of coverage and chance for gainz.

 

[Yano]

there are definitely things we dont understand. hormones are incredibly complex.

i mean how many metabolites does test have? and metabolites of those metabolites? so on and so forth until secretion?

Where is the info on orals? never read that yet.

I'm not even on the sharp end of the dullest knives in the drawer but holy shit man you are not kidding. A lot of its still over my head but the more and more reading I do about hormones and receptor pathways and feedback loops ,, the more questions I come up with than I get answers ... some wild shit

 

[TODAY]

there are definitely things we dont understand. hormones are incredibly complex.

i mean how many metabolites does test have? and metabolites of those metabolites? so on and so forth until secretion?

Where is the info on orals? never read that yet.

Agreed.

We have yet to fully grasp the complexity and nuance of human muscle anabolism. It is absolutely possible (even likely) that there are mechanisms and processes at play that we simply do not understand/have yet to identify.

 

[Yano]

Agreed.

We have yet to fully grasp the complexity and nuance of human muscle anabolism. It is absolutely possible (even likely) that there are mechanisms and processes at play that we simply do not understand/have yet to identify.

There are only 2 main pathways and I thought well shit this wont be hard to figure out ,,,, then I started reading and go soooo fucking lost Its insane to even start to try and figure out ,, check this shit out ,, it wont let me copy the map with all the links in it so ill put up the page .. Scroll down and look at that

Metabolic pathway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Androgen backdoor pathway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TomJ]

There are only 2 pathways and I thought well shit this wont be hard to figure out ,,,, then I started reading and go soooo fucking lost Its insane to even start to try and figure out ,, check this shit out ,, it wont let me copy the map with all the links in it so ill put up the page .. Scroll down and look at that

Metabolic pathway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CJ]

there are definitely things we dont understand. hormones are incredibly complex.

i mean how many metabolites does test have? and metabolites of those metabolites? so on and so forth until secretion?

Where is the info on orals? never read that yet.

I've heard Scott Stevenson and Dave Crossland, among others, talk about it on podcasts. I have no idea where they got the information from.

If I recall correctly, they said with the exception of Anavar, the other common orals don't bind to the AR, I think they said that the hormones were radioisotoped to determine this.

 

[TomJ]

I've heard Scott Stevenson and Dave Crossland, among others, talk about it on podcasts. I have no idea where they got the information from.

If I recall correctly, they said with the exception of Anavar, the other common orals don't bind to the AR, I think they said that the hormones were radioisotoped to determine this.

thats unusaul, but i mean it makes sense given how drastic of a difference that orals can make, even on an already heavy cycle, for a short time

 

[Yano]

There are only 2 pathways and I thought well shit this wont be hard to figure out ,,,, then I started reading and go soooo fucking lost Its insane to even start to try and figure out ,, check this shit out ,, it wont let me copy the map with all the links in it so ill put up the page .. Scroll down and look at that

Metabolic pathway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Androgen backdoor pathway - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

yah you gota go to the page on the wiki to get all the links and shit , i tried to copy it too didnt work for me either

 

[Yano]

This was the statement i started with .. and thought it wont be hard

There are two types of metabolic pathways that are characterized by their ability to either synthesize molecules with the utilization of energy (anabolic pathway), or break down complex molecules and release energy in the process (catabolic pathway).

Then when you dig into it ,, there are hundreds of em for all kinds of shit ,, i got lost as fuck hahahah

I wanna understand this shit but my 10th grade education n GED only take me so far

 

[TomJ]

This was the statement i started with .. and thought it wont be hard

There are two types of metabolic pathways that are characterized by their ability to either synthesize molecules with the utilization of energy (anabolic pathway), or break down complex molecules and release energy in the process (catabolic pathway).

Then when you dig into it ,, there are hundreds of em for all kinds of shit ,, i got lost as fuck hahahah

I wanna understand this shit but my 10th grade education n GED only take me so far

exactly, and anyone who thinks they have it figured out how a synthetic hormone discontinued 50 years ago interacts through that whole cascade is utterly full of shit

 

[RowdyBrad]

Great info and discussion. Good point that depending on how far from ones muscular capacity they are, the different the potential weekly gains would be.

I love this kind of discussion and hadn't really seen much info in 1 spot, just more a generic .5 potential a week for gains and never depending on dosage volumes.

I am beginning a surplus and hope to put on a great deal of muscle and max out my gains by monitoring fat gain and adjusting calories up as i go versus a set surplus addition per week. I am still unsure if adding in nandrolone will potentially yield more gains than I would see with just testosterone itself at the 6-700 mg a week level.

 

[BRICKS]

FWIW there is a dose response curve for every drug/hormone. That point above which there are diminished returns of efficacy but general side effects will increase. This is going to vary from individual to individual. Personally I have never gained any more from running 800 mg to a gm of test over 600.