Why Does Nandrolone Cause Water Retention?

[educate-me]

Steroids like Testosterone are known to convert into Estrogen, which is very 'wet' hormone. So why does Nandrolone tend to cause water retention with such a low Test to Estrogen conversion rate (10-25% that of Testosterone)?
Any reason why more folks on Deca report water retention than NPP?

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Why do you think it CAUSES water retention?

Because you heard others say it?

That's exactly the same reason others believe it.

Estrogen doesn't cause water retention in MEN. What like we are some kind of menstrating woman?

Water retention comes down to diet, specifically your electrolyte ratio and the amounts and timing of carbohydrate consumption.

 

[Reader591]

Steroids like Testosterone are known to convert into Estrogen, which is very 'wet' hormone. So why does Nandrolone tend to cause water retention with such a low Test to Estrogen conversion rate (10-25% that of Testosterone)?
Any reason why more folks on Deca report water retention than NPP?

I’ve been on low dose Deca as an add on to my trt, so 80 mg per week Deca. I’ve been on since Dec. Of course it’s a low dose, but I’ve noticed absolutely nothing visually different. I’ve also personally noticed a very positive uptick in mood from it. That’s honestly the biggest thing I’ve noticed from it.

This is just my very limited experience from it, but it’s pretty much opposite from what everyone echos to be true.

 

[educate-me]

Why do you think it CAUSES water retention?

Because you heard others say it?

Yes, dozens myself but I'm sure Reddit could produce thousands who would claim this as well. No clue what causes it specifically.

Estrogen doesn't cause water retention in MEN.

Bold claim. I watched the scale go up 10lbs over the course of a couple weeks when first starting TRT. My diet was unchanged and in deficit, yet I gained 10lbs specifically after starting TRT at 180mg/wk. Bloodwork showed that my estrogen levels had more than doubled since pre-TRT.
-How do you explain the mountains of anecdotal experiences and scientific data claiming that increased Estrogen leads to increased water retention?
-Why would bodybuilders stop taking "wet compounds" a few weeks before stage if this were not the case? Because some reddit bros said so?

Water retention comes down to diet, specifically your electrolyte ratio and the amounts and timing of carbohydrate consumption.

Yes and no.

Schematic to illustrate the complex control of fluid and sodium balance and the multiple ways in which estradiol (E2) and progesterone (P4) may influence these processes. AVP indicates arginine vasopressin; ANG II, angiotensin II; CNS, central nervous system; PNS, peripheral nervous system; RAAS, renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system.

^would have listed 2 different pubmed links, but can't due to newbie restrictions

 

[educate-me]

I’ve noticed absolutely nothing visually different

what did the scale do?

 

[Reader591]

what did the scale do?

Nothing. I’ve been losing weight since I started a cut in Jan, right now I’m currently in maintaince. I’ll resume weight loss in a few weeks. So I’m down from 233 high to 216-218. My weight stays stable as long as my diet stays stable.

I have had increased in strength. Chalk it up to what you want. Weight has maintained, and in the maintaince phase my strength endurance mostly has increased. I’m not sure about absolute 1 rm, but I’d assume it’s up too.

For instance, my bench at 275 had been stuck at a PR of 11 reps. Last week, I hit 14 reps.

My deadlift at 405, I hit 15 reps last night and have never been able to do that. I may have been able to do more if my lungs could have kept up.

But I have other factors at play such as working hard on my hip, ankle, and shoulder mobility, which always helps me out. So I can’t chalk it up to any one thing.

 

[Reader591]

Keep in mind, this is only my experience I’m sharing. Me and me only, low dose, limited time too.

I have no other anabolic experience to compare to for me, other than my trt dose. Which I also responded very well to might I add over the years.

 

[Yano]

This is way over my head but the way I understand it is , Progestogins , the synthetic form of progestogens which are natural , attach to the Progesterone receptor.

So in some folks the combination of low estrogenic activity which raises estradiol and the moderate progestogenic activity can cause fluid retention and even gyno from what Ive read.

Again , that doesn't happen to every one , like baldy pointed out at some point bro science took over and obscured the truth.

Progestogens do ALL kinds of stuff in women , the entire female reproductive system depends on em and even their brain. In men they help with spermiogenesis , sperm capacitation and fancy shit like testosterone synthesis

Progestogens are NOT estrogens so in men they have little to no effects on feminization.

I'm sure I might of missed a few things I sure ain't no clinician or even one of the smart kids but thats kind of what I understand about it.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Yes, dozens myself but I'm sure Reddit could produce thousands who would claim this as well. No clue what causes it specifically.

Bold claim. I watched the scale go up 10lbs over the course of a couple weeks when first starting TRT. My diet was unchanged and in deficit, yet I gained 10lbs specifically after starting TRT at 180mg/wk. Bloodwork showed that my estrogen levels had more than doubled since pre-TRT.
-How do you explain the mountains of anecdotal experiences and scientific data claiming that increased Estrogen leads to increased water retention?
-Why would bodybuilders stop taking "wet compounds" a few weeks before stage if this were not the case? Because some reddit bros said so?


Yes and no.

Schematic to illustrate the complex control of fluid and sodium balance and the multiple ways in which estradiol (E2) and progesterone (P4) may influence these processes. AVP indicates arginine vasopressin; ANG II, angiotensin II; CNS, central nervous system; PNS, peripheral nervous system; RAAS, renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system.

^would have listed 2 different pubmed links, but can't due to newbie restrictions

Ahhh.... 1000s of reddit subscribers say it's true so must be true.

E2 and progesterone aren't the only things to influence those processes. You are cherry picking to support a claim. Both are FEMALE hormones.

I see fluid and sodium as well as thirst and sodium on there. Just like I stated above. The chart supports my argument as much as yours.

 

[educate-me]

I see fluid and sodium as well as thirst and sodium on there. Just like I stated above. The chart supports my argument as much as yours.

No, it doesn't. You said:

Estrogen doesn't cause water retention in MEN.

I never said it couldn't be sodium and fluid intake, that statement is true with or without Nandrolone... didn't think that needed mentioning when it's a known factor.

---

E2 and progesterone aren't the only things to influence those processes. You are cherry picking to support a claim. Both are FEMALE hormones.

No, I'm not cherry picking anything - I showed the whole cycle when I could have just clipped that part off. Not sure why you would say I'm cherry picking anything when I'm clearly not.

Estrogen and Progesterone aren't simply "female hormones" if they exist in the male body... I don'y understand your point in mentioning these things either. If your estrogen is spiked, you will retain more water - this is not a crazy claim.

But back on point... Deca is known to cause water retention. My question is "why" when estrogen shouldn't be elevated from this steroid.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

No, it doesn't. You said:

---

No, I'm not cherry picking anything - I showed the whole cycle when I could have just clipped that part off. Not sure why you would say I'm cherry picking anything when I'm clearly not.

Estrogen and Progesterone aren't simply "female hormones" if they exist in the male body... I don'y understand your point in mentioning these things either. If your estrogen is spiked, you will retain more water - this is not a crazy claim.

But back on point... Deca is known to cause water retention. My question is "why" when estrogen shouldn't be elevated from this steroid.

No, I also said:

"Water retention comes down to diet, specifically your electrolyte ratio and the amounts and timing of carbohydrate consumption."


Your point changed now. You were just saying estrogen causes water retention. "Wet compounds" being compounds that aromatize. Now you say "Deca causes water retention."

I said estrogen DOES NOT cause water retention in men.

That chart you provided gives you all the answers as to "why"...

Stop looking at estrogen and progesterone and look at the other, more complicated responses from the body: arginine vasopressin ANG II, angiotensin II; CNS, central nervous system; PNS, peripheral nervous system; RAAS, renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Those aren't responses STRICTLY from estrogen increases. Those are ALSO responses to the androgens. You have three families of steroids: Testosterone derived, DHT-derived, and nor-testosterone derived. Each has it's own effects on the body, with subsequent responses from the body. We are only beginning to understand how angiotensin II effects blood pressure. Blood pressure isn't due to estrogen no more than water retention being due to estrogen. There are MANY more factors involved.

 

[educate-me]

Your point changed now.

It really didn't. Is this how every fucking interaction goes with you? This shit is counterproductive as fuck.

Stop looking at estrogen and progesterone and look at the other, more complicated responses from the body: arginine vasopressin ANG II, angiotensin II; CNS, central nervous system; PNS, peripheral nervous system; RAAS, renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system. Those aren't responses STRICTLY from estrogen increases. Those are ALSO responses to the androgens. You have three families of steroids: Testosterone derived, DHT-derived, and nor-testosterone derived. Each has it's own effects on the body, with subsequent responses from the body. We are only beginning to understand how angiotensin II effects blood pressure.

Had you started this conversation off like this^ - it would have saved half the damn responses in this thread. Needlessly combative.

I disagree with not looking at Estrogen and Progesterone when both are inputs to every affecting system except the kidneys. I think these are also the most directly related to the administration of Nandrolone. Not looking at E and P would be like ignoring diet and fluid intake in an athlete. How E and P affect these systems, though, is a more complicated conversation. How much do you know about these processes?

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

It really didn't. Is this how every fucking interaction goes with you? This shit is counterproductive as fuck.


Had you started this conversation off like this^ - it would have saved half the damn responses in this thread. Needlessly combative.

I disagree with not looking at Estrogen and Progesterone when both are inputs to every affecting system except the kidneys. I think these are also the most directly related to the administration of Nandrolone. Not looking at E and P would be like ignoring diet and fluid intake in an athlete. How E and P affect these systems, though, is a more complicated conversation. How much do you know about these processes?

I’m going to leave you in here alone. Combatative? I was being entirely respectful. I’ll see you around pal.