what to do after reaching failure in a set

[Emerald Bull]

I'd like to know what the community does after reaching failure in a set. By "failure" I mean either form breakdown during compound lifts or concentric failure on isolation lifts. My practice has been to take a 10-sec break, lift a couple more times, and repeat until all my reps are done for the set ("rest-pause"). My thinking is that these reps are the most valuable for growth, at least if we assume that involuntary deceleration of the weight lifted with max effort is a good proxy for mechanical tension.

I'm slightly dissatisfied with this method because I'm rarely able to reach my rep target on any sets beyond the first; instead, I will reach my target number of reps on Set 1, rest, fail early on Set 2, lift a few rest-pause reps, take full-length rest (1 min for upper body or 2 min for squats), and then continue failing earlier in subsequent sets until all are "complete". Is it a problem that I fail most sets? Should I drop the weight after failing so I can complete the next set? Should I increase rest time after failure to complete the next set?

 

[TastyT]

Personally I bang out my sets till I’m hitting like 5-7 reps to failure then I drop the weight a little bit and am able to be back in my 8-12 rep range. I guess to each their own but that’s what works for me. I have been experimenting with different things to find what’s best. I like to try to incorporate top sets then push to failure beyond that. I am no super experienced lifter but I keep form the best I can while hitting failure. It helps me to slow down my movement and push through and keep form solid to mitigate the risk of injury. On the last set drop sets can make a big difference to feel that good burn also.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I'd like to know what the community does after reaching failure in a set. By "failure" I mean either form breakdown during compound lifts or concentric failure on isolation lifts. My practice has been to take a 10-sec break, lift a couple more times, and repeat until all my reps are done for the set ("rest-pause"). My thinking is that these reps are the most valuable for growth, at least if we assume that involuntary deceleration of the weight lifted with max effort is a good proxy for mechanical tension.

I'm slightly dissatisfied with this method because I'm rarely able to reach my rep target on any sets beyond the first; instead, I will reach my target number of reps on Set 1, rest, fail early on Set 2, lift a few rest-pause reps, take full-length rest (1 min for upper body or 2 min for squats), and then continue failing earlier in subsequent sets until all are "complete". Is it a problem that I fail most sets? Should I drop the weight after failing so I can complete the next set? Should I increase rest time after failure to complete the next set?

Increase rest time. There’s an entire thread where we all argue about it. You need 3-5 minutes rest between sets to recover adequately from central fatigue. This will allow more motor unit recruitment which will have a positive effect on performance. This has nothing to do with anything you feel or how hard you are breathing.

Give it a try. You’ll get more reps in than with the quick one minute break.

You can use dropsets to go beyond failure. Or similar to what you are kind of doing, use “half sets” where whatever you get on your set to failure, rest 1 min then try to hit half that number of reps.

 

[Yano]

Increase rest time. There’s an entire thread where we all argue about it. You need 3-5 minutes rest between sets to recover adequately from central fatigue. This will allow more motor unit recruitment which will have a positive effect on performance. This has nothing to do with anything you feel or how hard you are breathing.

Give it a try. You’ll get more reps in than with the quick one minute break.

You can use dropsets to go beyond failure. Or similar to what you are kind of doing, use “half sets” where whatever you get on your set to failure, rest 1 min then try to hit half that number of reps.

100% right on there , which is why Dynamic days whip your fucking ass harder than Max Effort days can. Pushing 8 sets of doubles or triples with just 30 seconds between is a son of a bitch compared to working up to a 1rm with a few minutes between pulls .

 

[reinstonebro]

I'd like to know what the community does after reaching failure in a set. By "failure" I mean either form breakdown during compound lifts or concentric failure on isolation lifts. My practice has been to take a 10-sec break, lift a couple more times, and repeat until all my reps are done for the set ("rest-pause"). My thinking is that these reps are the most valuable for growth, at least if we assume that involuntary deceleration of the weight lifted with max effort is a good proxy for mechanical tension.

I'm slightly dissatisfied with this method because I'm rarely able to reach my rep target on any sets beyond the first; instead, I will reach my target number of reps on Set 1, rest, fail early on Set 2, lift a few rest-pause reps, take full-length rest (1 min for upper body or 2 min for squats), and then continue failing earlier in subsequent sets until all are "complete". Is it a problem that I fail most sets? Should I drop the weight after failing so I can complete the next set? Should I increase rest time after failure to complete the next set?

IMO you can think you reach failure but this is why if you really want to press it, have a spotter or spotters when training to failure. Then there is no doubt.

Form is key. Never give up form because you are tired or worn out. If you start seeing form slip, then its time to increase your rest between sets.

 

[Andrewgen_Receptors]

My thinking is that these reps are the most valuable for growth

They are.

Is it a problem that I fail most sets?

This is the goal, not the problem.

Rest-Pause reps are typically set in total rep ranges, say 20-30 total reps. A set of this might look like:
12
6
3
Total Reps: 21
Target Reps next time: 22+

I would not change your rest periods unless you are doing this consistently as it will inherently affect the number of reps you can complete. Also, Rest-Pause rest periods are typically 10-30 seconds (Dante Trudel recommends taking 10 REALLY deep breaths, then pressing on).

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

I'd like to know what the community does after reaching failure in a set. By "failure" I mean either form breakdown during compound lifts or concentric failure on isolation lifts. My practice has been to take a 10-sec break, lift a couple more times, and repeat until all my reps are done for the set ("rest-pause"). My thinking is that these reps are the most valuable for growth, at least if we assume that involuntary deceleration of the weight lifted with max effort is a good proxy for mechanical tension.

I'm slightly dissatisfied with this method because I'm rarely able to reach my rep target on any sets beyond the first; instead, I will reach my target number of reps on Set 1, rest, fail early on Set 2, lift a few rest-pause reps, take full-length rest (1 min for upper body or 2 min for squats), and then continue failing earlier in subsequent sets until all are "complete". Is it a problem that I fail most sets? Should I drop the weight after failing so I can complete the next set? Should I increase rest time after failure to complete the next set?

How many sets are you trying to do?

How do you determine your target reps before a workout?

It would be helpful to know what your program looks like to answer your question.

 

[buck]

I found for me that extending past failure on a regular basis just ended up taking me longer to recover as i had dug my recovery hole deeper, which just took longer to fill in. Growth happens after recovery as i see it. Stress a muscle where the brain thinks the best alternative is to grow more muscle to make life easier. Once past a certain point more damage to the muscle did not mean more growth as i had to wait longer between workouts.

 

[PZT]

I like the back down approach. Usually 20% but I stick with the same exercises for a while, so that can vary

 

[Emerald Bull]

How many sets are you trying to do?

How do you determine your target reps before a workout?

It would be helpful to know what your program looks like to answer your question.

I'm trying to do 10 sets for each major muscle group spread across 3 PPL workouts. I determine my targets reps by the type of exercise: I aim for 6 or 8 reps on heavy compound lifts and 10 - 12 reps for dumbbell / isolation work.

This is my log from last week...

April 25 (Push)
Dumbbell Shoulder Press* 12x35 lbs, 9x35 lbs, 8x35 lbs, 9x35 lbs, 8x35 lbs
Skull Crusher 12x35 lbs, 12x35 lbs, 12x45 lbs, 12x45 lbs, 12x45 lbs
Dumbbell Bench Press 12x35 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 7x40 lbs, 6x40 lbs
Dumbbell Fly 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs
* + rear delt fly superset; weight logged is for the press

April 27 (Pull)
Weighted Chin Up 6x25 lbs, 6x25 lbs, 3x25 lbs, 6x10 lbs, 3x10 lbs
Bent-Over Row* 10x45 lbs, 10x45 lbs, 10x45 lbs, 8x45 lbs, 6x45 lbs
Biceps Curl 12x25 lbs, 8x25 lbs, 6x25 lbs, 12x15 lbs, 20x9 lbs
Reverse Fly 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 9x10 lbs
* + seal row + one-arm row triple set; weight logged is for bent-over row

April 29 (Legs)
Back Squat, Heels-Elevated 8x90 lbs, 8x140 lbs, 6x140 lbs, 5x140 lbs, 4x140 lbs
...was supposed to do 5 sets of glute bridge and 5 sets of leg extensions but ran out of time

 

[RiR0]

I'm trying to do 10 sets for each major muscle group spread across 3 PPL workouts. I determine my targets reps by the type of exercise: I aim for 6 or 8 reps on heavy compound lifts and 10 - 12 reps for dumbbell / isolation work.

This is my log from last week...

April 25 (Push)
Dumbbell Shoulder Press* 12x35 lbs, 9x35 lbs, 8x35 lbs, 9x35 lbs, 8x35 lbs
Skull Crusher 12x35 lbs, 12x35 lbs, 12x45 lbs, 12x45 lbs, 12x45 lbs
Dumbbell Bench Press 12x35 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 7x40 lbs, 6x40 lbs
Dumbbell Fly 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs
* + rear delt fly superset; weight logged is for the press

April 27 (Pull)
Weighted Chin Up 6x25 lbs, 6x25 lbs, 3x25 lbs, 6x10 lbs, 3x10 lbs
Bent-Over Row* 10x45 lbs, 10x45 lbs, 10x45 lbs, 8x45 lbs, 6x45 lbs
Biceps Curl 12x25 lbs, 8x25 lbs, 6x25 lbs, 12x15 lbs, 20x9 lbs
Reverse Fly 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 9x10 lbs
* + seal row + one-arm row triple set; weight logged is for bent-over row

April 29 (Legs)
Back Squat, Heels-Elevated 8x90 lbs, 8x140 lbs, 6x140 lbs, 5x140 lbs, 4x140 lbs
...was supposed to do 5 sets of glute bridge and 5 sets of leg extensions but ran out of time

These reps aren’t even possible if you’re hitting failure.

 

[Emerald Bull]

These reps aren’t even possible if you’re hitting failure.

One day, if you train hard enough, you too will be able to perform similarly impossible feats of superhuman strength!

 

[SFGiants]

If I wasn't done with that movement having more sets to go I would drop the weight and keep going.

Keep in mind I trained powerlifting, I assume a bodybuilder would do the same.

 

[RiR0]

One day, if you train hard enough, you too will be able to perform similarly impossible feats of superhuman strength!

I’ll post a pic and you do the same. Your working weight is my wife’s warmups.
However if you’re going to failure no your dumbass isn’t going to be able to recover enough to hit those reps.

 

[RiR0]

You’re using first set warmup weights
You don’t even know how to train to failure yet

 

[SFGiants]

You’re using first set warmup weights
You don’t even know how to train to failure yet

Love to see one of these types on a max effort day, we ran many out of our gym.

Grinding out heavy weight is not for all, getting that last skull crusher rep out with 135 plus lbs is not for everyone.

Our women scared the shit out of many on squat day lol!

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

One day, if you train hard enough, you too will be able to perform similarly impossible feats of superhuman strength!

He’s right. You should listen to his simple statement “these reps aren’t even possible if you are hitting failure”.

If you can do 5 sets, you didn’t hit failure on the first set. You are doing useless volume with that many sets and it’s that volume that’s slowly and eventually making the last sets/reps fail.

Instead of:
Dumbbell Bench Press 12x35 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 7x40 lbs, 6x40 lbs

Try:
Two sets with 50 lbs as many as you can possibly eek out with good form. Your face should look like you’re giving birth on the last three reps. You should be able to get 15 to 20 at this weight. You’re aiming for a weight where you fail in 8-12 but I don’t want to be responsible for you getting stupidly hurt. Rest 3-5 minutes and do a second set with similar giving birth face. I’d guess 12.

Now each week where you get failure of both within that 8-12 rep range add weight the next week.

Do that for your other movements except squat and deadlift. Don’t fuck yourself up on those. Stop at one giving birth face rep for now.

That’s what “to failure” means. If you’re unable to do that, select a beginner program
www.liftvault.com
You’re a beginner. So search based on goal.

 

[RowdyBrad]

I'm trying to do 10 sets for each major muscle group spread across 3 PPL workouts. I determine my targets reps by the type of exercise: I aim for 6 or 8 reps on heavy compound lifts and 10 - 12 reps for dumbbell / isolation work.

This is my log from last week...

April 25 (Push)
Dumbbell Shoulder Press* 12x35 lbs, 9x35 lbs, 8x35 lbs, 9x35 lbs, 8x35 lbs
Skull Crusher 12x35 lbs, 12x35 lbs, 12x45 lbs, 12x45 lbs, 12x45 lbs
Dumbbell Bench Press 12x35 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 7x40 lbs, 6x40 lbs
Dumbbell Fly 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs, 12x20 lbs
* + rear delt fly superset; weight logged is for the press

April 27 (Pull)
Weighted Chin Up 6x25 lbs, 6x25 lbs, 3x25 lbs, 6x10 lbs, 3x10 lbs
Bent-Over Row* 10x45 lbs, 10x45 lbs, 10x45 lbs, 8x45 lbs, 6x45 lbs
Biceps Curl 12x25 lbs, 8x25 lbs, 6x25 lbs, 12x15 lbs, 20x9 lbs
Reverse Fly 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 12x10 lbs, 9x10 lbs
* + seal row + one-arm row triple set; weight logged is for bent-over row

April 29 (Legs)
Back Squat, Heels-Elevated 8x90 lbs, 8x140 lbs, 6x140 lbs, 5x140 lbs, 4x140 lbs
...was supposed to do 5 sets of glute bridge and 5 sets of leg extensions but ran out of time

Usually if I see the spikes in the 3rd set or so where you lift more than previously or higher than the previous set at least, it means you were holding back OR perhaps didn't prime yourself enough with warm up sets first. Could be something to do with form failure versus absolute failure as well. Might also be technique issues as well, like with your flys keeping the same reps and weight at failure. If I use correct technique with a raised chest and deep stretch, matching sets would never happen. If lower muscle mass and therefore less muscle distruption/activation occurs to get to failure, perhaps it is just a false high RPE or maybe there is less drop because of less trauma to the muscles. I'm unsure, but I am assuming you are a smaller person from your weights and ability on chin ups.

Every 4 weeks I do all my sets to my version of failure. With that, on most exercises, I cannot physically do a full rep more or failed during the rep itself. I can never match reps between sequential sets unless I pulled short on failure or didn't warm up enough and I get full muscle connection (or just psych up strongly) a set or 2 in, then drop significantly in the sets after. I keep to 3 or 4 sets because the 5th won't be valuable to me.

Just my personal experience.

 

[Emerald Bull]

He’s right. You should listen to his simple statement “these reps aren’t even possible if you are hitting failure”.

If you can do 5 sets, you didn’t hit failure on the first set. You are doing useless volume with that many sets and it’s that volume that’s slowly and eventually making the last sets/reps fail.

Instead of:
Dumbbell Bench Press 12x35 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 10x40 lbs, 7x40 lbs, 6x40 lbs

Try:
Two sets with 50 lbs as many as you can possibly eek out with good form. Your face should look like you’re giving birth on the last three reps. You should be able to get 15 to 20 at this weight. You’re aiming for a weight where you fail in 8-12 but I don’t want to be responsible for you getting stupidly hurt. Rest 3-5 minutes and do a second set with similar giving birth face. I’d guess 12.

Now each week where you get failure of both within that 8-12 rep range add weight the next week.

Do that for your other movements except squat and deadlift. Don’t fuck yourself up on those. Stop at one giving birth face rep for now.

That’s what “to failure” means. If you’re unable to do that, select a beginner program
www.liftvault.com
You’re a beginner. So search based on goal.

Of course he's right, but his post took virtually zero effort, lacked any constructive criticism, and incorrectly assumed that I took every one of those sets to failure; therefore, I simply responded in kind with a snarky comment.

Your reply is full of constructive criticism, and I appreciate that. Your assessment is correct: I am not reaching failure on every set. I am reaching failure on the 2 - 3 sets, when you see the numbers drop.

If I read you correctly, I shouldn't even start counting sets until I've reached failure. So, I should just warm up with light weights (without logging these sets), then go to failure with working weight for a couple of sets.

After two sets of failure, is it okay to add 2 or 3 sets where I intentionally stop 1-rep short of the number I reached on the failure sets? I ask because I've read that such close-to-failure sets can be equally beneficial without incurring as much additional recovery cost.

And in case this makes a difference: the weights I listed for the dumbbell bench press are for one dumbbell, so the total weight is double what I listed. I can see where that is confusing in this context, but it's how I've been writing my weights for dumbbells so I don't have to think about it when loading them.

Usually if I see the spikes in the 3rd set or so where you lift more than previously or higher than the previous set at least, it means you were holding back OR perhaps didn't prime yourself enough with warm up sets first. Could be something to do with form failure versus absolute failure as well. Might also be technique issues as well, like with your flys keeping the same reps and weight at failure. If I use correct technique with a raised chest and deep stretch, matching sets would never happen. If lower muscle mass and therefore less muscle distruption/activation occurs to get to failure, perhaps it is just a false high RPE or maybe there is less drop because of less trauma to the muscles. I'm unsure, but I am assuming you are a smaller person from your weights and ability on chin ups.

Every 4 weeks I do all my sets to my version of failure. With that, on most exercises, I cannot physically do a full rep more or failed during the rep itself. I can never match reps between sequential sets unless I pulled short on failure or didn't warm up enough and I get full muscle connection (or just psych up strongly) a set or 2 in, then drop significantly in the sets after. I keep to 3 or 4 sets because the 5th won't be valuable to me.

Just my personal experience.

I'm not reaching failure on the first set of any exercise I listed, and I never try to reach absolute failure on squats. I stop when I notice form failure of any kind. Lifts like flys, reverse flys, skull crushers behind the head and rows are difficult to count because I end up doing partial reps, using body english, or assisting with other muscles in some way to "finish" the set, either intentionally or unintentionally, so all those numbers are fuzzy.

My reps only went up on bench and chins because I dropped the weight in the later sets. I honestly don't know what went on with shoulder press. It is a weird lift for me, partly because I'm fairly confident I tore something in my right shoulder years ago doing heavy overhead squats. Your tip about doing 3 - 4 sets instead of 5 is very helpful I've done 5 for years because of Stronglifts and because I've read that 10 sets for week is optimal volume for hypertrophy; however, it's not clear to me how these sources are counting a "set".

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Of course he's right, but his post took virtually zero effort, lacked any constructive criticism, and incorrectly assumed that I took every one of those sets to failure; therefore, I simply responded in kind with a snarky comment.

Your reply is full of constructive criticism, and I appreciate that. Your assessment is correct: I am not reaching failure on every set. I am reaching failure on the 2 - 3 sets, when you see the numbers drop.

If I read you correctly, I shouldn't even start counting sets until I've reached failure. So, I should just warm up with light weights (without logging these sets), then go to failure with working weight for a couple of sets.

After two sets of failure, is it okay to add 2 or 3 sets where I intentionally stop 1-rep short of the number I reached on the failure sets? I ask because I've read that such close-to-failure sets can be equally beneficial without incurring as much additional recovery cost.

And in case this makes a difference: the weights I listed for the dumbbell bench press are for one dumbbell, so the total weight is double what I listed. I can see where that is confusing in this context, but it's how I've been writing my weights for dumbbells so I don't have to think about it when loading them.


I'm not reaching failure on the first set of any exercise I listed, and I never try to reach absolute failure on squats. I stop when I notice form failure of any kind. Lifts like flys, reverse flys, skull crushers behind the head and rows are difficult to count because I end up doing partial reps, using body english, or assisting with other muscles in some way to "finish" the set, either intentionally or unintentionally, so all those numbers are fuzzy.

My reps only went up on bench and chins because I dropped the weight in the later sets. I honestly don't know what went on with shoulder press. It is a weird lift for me, partly because I'm fairly confident I tore something in my right shoulder years ago doing heavy overhead squats. Your tip about doing 3 - 4 sets instead of 5 is very helpful I've done 5 for years because of Stronglifts and because I've read that 10 sets for week is optimal volume for hypertrophy; however, it's not clear to me how these sources are counting a "set".

I answered all your questions in my first post.

Warmups are whatever you need them to be but they are “warmups”. So why track them?

Your stupid sets to 10 are what? What do they do? That’s “junk volume”. There’s ZERO hypertrophy benefit to “pre-exhausting”. It’s a total absolute waste. Don’t do that.

Volume does NOTHING for hypertrophy. Mechanical Tension is what stimulates hypertrophy. Have a clear understanding of what “Mechanical Tension” means in our context.