TRT with Test + Clomid

[death metal]

Everyone should do as they see fit for themselves as studies on human biology is far from an exact science.

Indications for the use of human chorionic gonadotropic hormone for the management of infertility in hypogonadal men

Hypogonadism among men desiring fertility preservation presents a unique challenge to physicians. Over the past decade the number of younger men with hypogonadism has increased dramatically. These men are often treated with testosterone replacement therapy ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

By the way just to let you understand how all these studies are very contradictory full of adversarial messages...Here below some abstract from the above link you just posted :

Finally, hCG has also been used to reduce some of the side effects of TRT, mainly preventing testicular atrophy and helping maintain response to TRT by “cycling off” TRT with a periodic replacement of therapy with hCG.

When planning for pregnancy in greater than 12 months TRT should be cycled off every six months replaced by a four-week cycle of 3,000 IU of hCG every other day.

For men who wish to obtain pregnancy within six months it was suggested to discontinue TRT and start 3,000 IU of hCG intramuscular, or subcutaneous every other day. SA should then be performed every two months. Clomiphene citrate 25–50 mg PO daily can be added or omitted to promote FSH production . We suggest including of clomiphene citrate in all men who are already oligospermic or azoospermic.

I couldn't agree more and it's exactly what I would do if I wanted to remain fertile. Stop testosterone for a while and start HCG only wich is the best procedure performed by endocrinologist to keep a patient fertile again.

But then this article also says :

in men who received TRT and 500 IU of hCG every other day an increase in intratesticular testosterone by 26% was observed . This proved that co-administering low dose hCG could maintain intratesticular testosterone in those undergoing TRT. It was later shown that not only is intratesticular testosterone increased with co-administration hCG but spermatogenesis is preserved as well at one year follow up (. These studies proved that by concomitant hCG administration with TRT spermatogenesis and thus potentially fertility could be preserved.

So as you can see, basically the same article says two different things

1) Best way to preserve fertility and mantain response to TRT is to cycling off testosterone and add HCG
2) They have seen that co-administering low dose hCG could maintain intratesticular testosterone in those undergoing TRT.

....and why do they say that ? Simply because each of us responds differently , something good for me it's not for you and vice versa.

 

[buck]

By the way just to let you understand how all these studies are very contradictory full of adversarial messages...Here below some abstract from the above link you just posted :

Finally, hCG has also been used to reduce some of the side effects of TRT, mainly preventing testicular atrophy and helping maintain response to TRT by “cycling off” TRT with a periodic replacement of therapy with hCG.

When planning for pregnancy in greater than 12 months TRT should be cycled off every six months replaced by a four-week cycle of 3,000 IU of hCG every other day.

For men who wish to obtain pregnancy within six months it was suggested to discontinue TRT and start 3,000 IU of hCG intramuscular, or subcutaneous every other day. SA should then be performed every two months. Clomiphene citrate 25–50 mg PO daily can be added or omitted to promote FSH production . We suggest including of clomiphene citrate in all men who are already oligospermic or azoospermic.

I couldn't agree more and it's exactly what I would do if I wanted to remain fertile. Stop testosterone for a while and start HCG only wich is the best procedure performed by endocrinologist to keep a patient fertile again.

But then this article also says :

in men who received TRT and 500 IU of hCG every other day an increase in intratesticular testosterone by 26% was observed . This proved that co-administering low dose hCG could maintain intratesticular testosterone in those undergoing TRT. It was later shown that not only is intratesticular testosterone increased with co-administration hCG but spermatogenesis is preserved as well at one year follow up (. These studies proved that by concomitant hCG administration with TRT spermatogenesis and thus potentially fertility could be preserved.

So as you can see, basically the same article says two different things

1) Best way to preserve fertility and mantain response to TRT is to cycling off testosterone and add HCG
2) They have seen that co-administering low dose hCG could maintain intratesticular testosterone in those undergoing TRT.

....and why do they say that ? Simply because each of us responds differently , something good for me it's not for you and vice versa.

For the above post i read it different than you. I read that HCG will continue to cause T to be produced even if outside T is being added. And that HCG will continue to keep the testis functional with its use. So i would suppose that HCG will also keep the other processes it is involved with functioning p450, vascular possibly nerve function etc. which is what i am concerned about. But i do not see any studies along those lines happening any time soon. I had a vasectomy long ago So fertility is out of my wheelhouse. My interest is the best health long term that i can get with the lifestyle i choose to lead.

I myself am on real TRT forever so why would i want to cycle off anything and have my levles drop to near nothing and stay there till i went back on. That makes no sense. Those that are not dependent on TRT and are just staying on a low dose cycle have other objectives then people like me who do not make enough T and never will. My posts are geared towards for those that have real TRT for life. Those that have p[lans to get off at some point or to have kids have other interests then i do and can disregard anything i post as it is not geared towards them or use it if they find it has value . My desire is to find what is most likely to give me and people such as me the best quality of life.

As we know from science when looking at many studies there is a range of results that one will tend to see from a wide variety of studies. I tend to look at as many studies as i can to see what they common thread points towards. And do not take any one study especially small ones as proof of anything. Just like i do not take any one person personal experience as any proof. Just as no one should take mine as any sort of fact. I may be one of the weird ones that is searching for information and truth. And not just pushing an agenda i have. I try to put out the info that i find so that others can make their own best judgement. Conclusions from studies often just end up being the authors opinion from the information that he sees with that 1 study.. The results of studies is not for the individual as in the long run people are far more alike than they are different even if we would like to think so. I go with what is most likely to be effective.

 

[death metal]

My desire is to find what is most likely to give me and people such as me the best quality of life.

I go with what is most likely to be effective.

I couldn't agree more , that the reason why I've decided to be on testosterone only without adding anything else (I might try some pregnenolone ) . To me and to plenty of people I know adding HCG does not bring any benefit , quite the opposite instead. I know people, for example, who would never consider a TRT without the addition of arimidex ...If I do that I lose my libido and I crash my ''good'' cholesterol HDL . I wish we had more information about HCG protecting-restoring nerve function , this is something I will look into.

 

[buck]

I couldn't agree more , that the reason why I've decided to be on testosterone only without adding anything else (I might try some pregnenolone ) . To me and to plenty of people I know adding HCG does not bring any benefit , quite the opposite instead. I know people, for example, who would never consider a TRT without the addition of arimidex ...If I do that I lose my libido and I crash my ''good'' cholesterol HDL . I wish we had more information about HCG protecting-restoring nerve function , this is something I will look into.

Glad to hear you have a plan that is working. I have choose to use HCG for about 18 years and at an age where 75% of people my age have high blood pressure i do not. And throughout my TRT and cycle years 20+ years the highest total level of cholesterol i have ever had was 155. As it seems HCG has some benifits stimulating the P450 pathway and helping the endothelial lining. Yet i am doing far better then most especially considering my senior citizen status, it appears that the HCG may be helping,. And of course there is the T production and testiclefunctioning which mat be an added benefit. But of course there is nothing definitive. But i will continue trying to keep all my functions at a younger level for as long as i feel it is worth it.

 

[death metal]

Glad to hear you have a plan that is working. I have choose to use HCG for about 18 years and at an age where 75% of people my age have high blood pressure i do not. And throughout my TRT and cycle years 20+ years the highest total level of cholesterol i have ever had was 155. As it seems HCG has some benifits stimulating the P450 pathway and helping the endothelial lining. Yet i am doing far better then most especially considering my senior citizen status, it appears that the HCG may be helping,. And of course there is the T production and testiclefunctioning which mat be an added benefit. But of course there is nothing definitive. But i will continue trying to keep all my functions at a younger level for as long as i feel it is worth it.

Are you following the Crysler protocol ? I rememeber at the beggining he recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test injection, then he switched on HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to their IM shot.

 

[buck]

Are you following the Crysler protocol ? I rememeber at the beggining he recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test injection, then he switched on HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to their IM shot.

I take 250 i.u. of HCG 2x a week. I microdose my TRT 15mg/day keeps me in the 800 range.

 

[death metal]

I take 250 i.u. of HCG 2x a week. I microdose my TRT 15mg/day keeps me in the 800 range.

800 is perfect, I also range between 700 and 850 with 50 mg of enathate every 4 or 5 days with IM injection on my shoulder. I have several friends doing something like your regime using propionate with subcutaneous shots. Are you taking propionate too ?

 

[buck]

800 is perfect, I also range between 700 and 850 with 50 mg of enathate every 4 or 5 days with IM injection on my shoulder. I have several friends doing something like your regime using propionate with subcutaneous shots. Are you taking propionate too ?

Cyp. When i raise my dose to 20 mg/day my levels come back at over 1500. The more often one does injections the less the ester seems to matter other then the ester just taking up space. I do not get the wild fluctuations that i did with once a week dosing.